Excessive revisions and proofs

[Craig]

In the past we've never really limited the number of revisions and proofs a client would receive with their orders when we are doing the layout. Recently we have had a few go to the extreme and now I want to limit excessive revisions without additional charges. What are those of you who have revision/proof limits using as a stopping point before adding additional charges? I was thinking between 3 and 5 revisions and only 1 complete design without charges. Most of our clients are good with the design but have minor revisions which is no big deal, then we had one who is on the 7th proof and the 3rd total design change. Well actually 2 designs now back to the first one with major changes... BTW, it's not that we are not doing what they ask, they just can't decide what they want.

 

[Ynot_UK]

Hourly artwork rate

 

[MacTwidget]

It really boils down the relationship that you have with your customer.
If it is "transactional" work, then charge accordingly.
If you have a strong working relationship with a customer/organization, then that needs to be taken into consideration. Are the "nickel and dime" charges going to erode the alliance that you have cultivated over time.

We have a large client that does between $4 and $5 million per year with us. I cannot remember the last time we charged for edits.

 

[SoggyWinter]

We charge hourly. Our major customers have their own design teams who know how to setup for print, but I absolutely agree with MacTwidgets post on not nickel and diming important relationships.

 

[Snowhugger]

There is almost nothing worse than a client who doesn't know what they want. They will drive you crazy and waste lots of time and money.

 

[MacTwidget]

There is almost nothing worse than a client who doesn't know what they want. They will drive you crazy and waste lots of time and money.

In my experience, that statement is best applied to the internal/promotional projects a company does. The printer itself can be its own worst customer.

 

[TJPrinter]

If we don’t acknowledge to our customers that they have exceeded their allotted time to complete a design, then we will continue to allow our customers to steal time. I had a new customer ask me to make changes to a pdf that was created by their designer. When I suggested that the best solution was to have the designer make the changes in the native software, the response was “I’d have to pay for that”. Apparently, his previous printer now retired didn’t charge for making changes to customer provided pdf’s.

Printers are their own worse enemies for creating an industry environment that suggests to the customer that our time means little, and after all we are getting paid to print the job, so what’s the big deal, it’s just time. Part of our printing job costing is based on an hourly rate and the designing portion should also be based on an hourly rate.

Give your in-house designer a raise by charging customers appropriately for the time they use.

 

[Craig]

I understand the charging for the designers time, we already do that. We also charge hourly and 95% of the time we are pretty spot on with the design and have a few minor tweaks or small copy edits.
So back to my question. How many revisions would you consider excessive? This is for the other 5% where we end up with a redesign or a client decides to try and make small changes on each proof vs making them at once. (we typically have a conversation with them if we start to see that happening)

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Just charge them.

Also design should be charged for if any work is provided. If your pricing scale for design has a learning curve, it's going to create problems. Your objective is to have the customer pay you and be happy. Don't introduce any unnecessary friction that can allow them to become not happy.

 

[TJPrinter]

I understand the charging for the designers time, we already do that. We also charge hourly and 95% of the time we are pretty spot on with the design and have a few minor tweaks or small copy edits.
So back to my question. How many revisions would you consider excessive? This is for the other 5% where we end up with a redesign or a client decides to try and make small changes on each proof vs making them at once. (we typically have a conversation with them if we start to see that happening)

Maybe a better question would be how to help that 5% become more decisive. Sounds to me like you’re already doing it right.

I don’t think it should be the overall number of edits but the time it takes to make the edits. If I price a brochure and let the customer know it will cost $150 based on 1½ hours of design work and I have 10 edits and get a final proof approved with 1½ hours work, no problem. I may be a bit annoyed that the 10 edits could have been made in only 2, but it shouldn’t affect the cost of the job since it didn’t cost me any additional time, just my sanity. If I have 3 edits on the same brochure but they were all extensive changes that took 3½ hours to get the final proof approval, that’s a time issue that needs to be added to the cost.

Best to let the customer know as you’re progressing with the design where they stand on time and extra charges, if any. And you’re already doing that.

 

[narseman]

Dealing with that exact scenario right now. A new client with a small half decent job. Started out as a huge rush.. Some minor tweaks on the cover file, which arrived a flat jpeg. Here we are a month later.. still waiting for a final approval after tweaking the cover at least 6 times (I think more like 8 or 9). Binding a hard copy each time to send pics. Stupid little tweaks that the end buyer would not know, or care if they did know. Down to the salesperson where to draw a line, BUT.. situation seems ripe for a production complaint and discount demanded.. I'll try to remember to update if this finally happens.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Dealing with that exact scenario right now. A new client with a small half decent job. Started out as a huge rush.. Some minor tweaks on the cover file, which arrived a flat jpeg. Here we are a month later.. still waiting for a final approval after tweaking the cover at least 6 times (I think more like 8 or 9). Binding a hard copy each time to send pics. Stupid little tweaks that the end buyer would not know, or care if they did know. Down to the salesperson where to draw a line, BUT.. situation seems ripe for a production complaint and discount demanded.. I'll try to remember to update if this finally happens.

Sometimes you need to beat the customer to the punch and get your money now before they fuck you over. Not many people are like this, of course, but you need to put them in their place when you feel the situation arising. "Hey it's customary for us to get a deposit for these orders and we noticed we never took one, sorry. Can I get your credit card for (whatever amount you would need to make you feel comfortable) that way my boss can stop yelling at me?"

It's my money, and I want it now.

 

[Ynot_UK]

^^ This. A new customer, you've not seen the colour of their money. Even getting a payment on account to cover a couple of hours' pre-press work locks them in to some degree. Without that, they could still walk elsewhere after you've exchanged dozens of emails, proofs, etc.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I encourage our Accura MIS users to add a variable to their proof email template, which automatically includes the version number of the proof. This way both parties know that they are on Proof Version: 99 of the "print ready" artwork that should have been good to go on the first proof!

 

[Shawnd]

A good proofing software will keep track of all the changes in a history or notes field so the customer will have that in front of them everytime they request a change through the software. You can then put in that change 1 of 3 and 2 of 3 and 3 of 3 so they know ahead of time.

 

[WiseGuy]

Our proofing solution, Good2Go (Good2GoSoftware.com) automatically builds up a history of the revisions and comments giving you some back-up to help support any additional billing due to excess changes. Also, we provide mark-up tools allowing the client and your people to mark-up charges and issues which can reduce the cycles by providing visual communication tools in a consistent interface. Check us out, we offer a free trial with free live set-up and training... takes about 15 minutes to get up and running with Good2Go.

 

[narseman]

Dealing with that exact scenario right now. A new client with a small half decent job. Started out as a huge rush.. Some minor tweaks on the cover file, which arrived a flat jpeg. Here we are a month later.. still waiting for a final approval after tweaking the cover at least 6 times (I think more like 8 or 9). Binding a hard copy each time to send pics. Stupid little tweaks that the end buyer would not know, or care if they did know. Down to the salesperson where to draw a line, BUT.. situation seems ripe for a production complaint and discount demanded.. I'll try to remember to update if this finally happens.

Update: The original file is still pending.. 3/6.. But.. No more proofs..
We've since produced a different title for him, small qty. So.. still wondering if he's taken the job elsewhere, or just lost momentum. Guess we'll see. N.

 

[michaelejahn]

In the past we've never really limited the number of revisions and proofs a client would receive with their orders when we are doing the layout. Recently we have had a few go to the extreme and now I want to limit excessive revisions without additional charges. What are those of you who have revision/proof limits using as a stopping point before adding additional charges? I was thinking between 3 and 5 revisions and only 1 complete design without charges. Most of our clients are good with the design but have minor revisions which is no big deal, then we had one who is on the 7th proof and the 3rd total design change. Well actually 2 designs now back to the first one with major changes... BTW, it's not that we are not doing what they ask, they just can't decide what they want.

 

[narseman]

Update: The original file is still pending.. 3/6.. But.. No more proofs..
We've since produced a different title for him, small qty. So.. still wondering if he's taken the job elsewhere, or just lost momentum. Guess we'll see. N.

Will wonders never cease? Finally got an approval to print. 4/5/24 Half the original quantity, still, good to see we didn't get screwed over.