Fiery or Not ?

[zebriu]

Hi to all and thanks for having me on this community

Im from the Algarve, Portugal.

We had a running Konica Minolta PRO C5501 with internal Fiery but a few months ago Konica says "no more spare parts," one of their techniques to sell a new one.

With all this COVID pandemic and after struggling with them a bit, they rented us a Konica Minolta PRO C 1060 with their own RIP (or controller).

This was a temporary situation for us to see where the market was going, but why pay someones where you can pay yours.

We are looking at XEROX and RICOH (mainly because of the technicians being able to reply on time) and in 5 years not coming with the same story.

Next Week we are going to XEROX to test the primelink c9065 (seems to me to be an office machine on steroids) and the xerox versant 180 (this one more to the one we have).

We have tested the RICOH PRO C5200 (But we are looking to get the new 5300, there is not one in Portugal, we would be the first.).

The RICOH 5200 we saw had the Fiery internal RIP, not the Ricoh controller so we couldn't see how fast its sends files to print, the machine looks pretty good.

We ran the KM 5501 with Fiery and didn't do much with it all those years.

We have a small RICOH MPC200 (office, 12 years) for t-shirt transfers, and its a nightmare to send a havier file to print for example...

Running the Konica Minolta PRO C1060 with their controller was no problem, not to much time till it starts to print.

My question is to anyone running one of these new machines (speciality the RICOH) with their controller and not Fiery and if its any good.

My Head designer is Old School, and we knows were to adjust colors.

The machine we mainly to print Menus, Vinyl, Business cards, never tear paper, etc.

We never do more than 50 to 100 runs, but for example a menu with all the pictures and everything can go up to a 1 GB.

My main concern is the time it takes to send the files to the machine without the RIP.
Is it worth spending that money on the Fiery?

 

[azehnali]

If you get a Xerox 180 you have to get the fiery rip ,thats the only way to print
that might tell you something which is you need a fiery

 

[Ynot_UK]

We never do more than 50 to 100 runs, but for example a menu with all the pictures and everything can go up to a 1 GB.

That's enormous - I would be first be looking at producing smaller PDFs.

 

[Ynot_UK]

Running the Konica Minolta PRO C1060 with their controller was no problem, not to much time till it starts to print.
Is it worth spending that money on the Fiery?

If you get a Xerox 180 you have to get the fiery rip ,thats the only way to print
that might tell you something which is you need a fiery

... it might tell you something else, i.e. you don't need a Fiery, you need a machine with a capable on-board OEM controller, such as the KM which @zebriu has been using (or a more modern incarnation thereof).

 

[zebriu]

... it might tell you something else, i.e. you don't need a Fiery, you need a machine with a capable on-board OEM controller, such as the KM which @zebriu has been using (or a more modern incarnation thereof).

the thing is not knowing how the ricoh controler handles it.

 

[azehnali]

as far as xerox your only option is fiery these days on production presses
there is no internal controller
the C60 model has an internal controller that is absolute garbage
wonder if the other manufacturers are the same

 

[zebriu]

as far as xerox your only option is fiery these days on production presses
there is no internal controller
the C60 model has an internal controller that is absolute garbage
wonder if the other manufacturers are the same

On the KM 1060 that we ran for a few months it was OK. My dilemma is not knowing in the Ricoh.
I think the sellers try to push the Fiery on to the deal, but I could be mistaken...

 

[Ynot_UK]

On the KM 1060 that we ran for a few months it was OK. My dilemma is not knowing in the Ricoh.
I think the sellers try to push the Fiery on to the deal, but I could be mistaken...

There is an element of that amongst some vendors, often based on history, i.e. before there were fully featured OEM controllers available as a more cost effective alternative, when Fiery was the only serious option for production print.

On the subject of costs, you'll save money ongoing by opting for an on-board OEM controller, since you'll likely pay either a separate or increased bundled price for ongoing maintenance/support charge for the Fiery (sometimes with year one "free" on the Fiery to distract you).

As you had a good experience with the KM C1060, why not look at the new C4070/4080? In terms of the volumes you're printing the C4065 would be more than adequate, although if you take that route bear in mind you can't add many of the various finishing options available on the larger siblings at a later date.

 

[zebriu]

There is an element of that amongst some vendors, often based on history, i.e. before there were fully featured OEM controllers available as a more cost effective alternative, when Fiery was the only serious option for production print.

On the subject of costs, you'll save money ongoing by opting for an on-board OEM controller, since you'll likely pay either a separate or increased bundled price for ongoing maintenance/support charge for the Fiery (sometimes with year one "free" on the Fiery to distract you).

As you had a good experience with the KM C1060, why not look at the new C4070/4080? In terms of the volumes you're printing the C4065 would be more than adequate, although if you take that route bear in mind you can't add many of the various finishing options available on the larger siblings at a later date.

I Know Fiery will give better choices "in case of emergency" to an OEM.

Now we have all the time in the world but when it starts (we hope so) I don't want to wait eternally for a file to start printing, that is money going out the door.



I'm going to look at that ongoing price part, thank you for the alert.



About KM, their policy is to cut off maintenance contracts after 7 to 8 years not more after being launched.

Even to contracts still active has it happened to me, they don't respect contracts, and I'm going to say more because this is not a laundry.

I brought my 5501 second KM Portugal with their guaranty for 5 years maintenance.

At the beginning of the 4th year they started to pressure, then cut the contract after 6 months claiming I had an old machine.

It's their policy because they did the same to a KM8000 and it's a fairly recent machine.

The KM machine is a work horse no doubt about that the problem is the assistance, buy a machine every 5 years ?

Yes if!

The machine has done millions of prints, you have got the investment return and profit to a point in pays the new one.

We are a small publicity company, the Algarve being a touristic area, we work 6 to 7 months not more.

Konica Minolta brags to be "number one" on Production printing, they have the posture of "king of the world" the last time I heard that was a guy on the titanic and look where he ended up...

Before we also had a CANON (CLC 700 if I'm not mistaken)

CANON had exactly the same posture has KM is having and has no expression at all here.

Ricoh is guarantying 10 years

Xerox is saying they have running machines with 17 years, still working, and with contract.

My choices would be

1- KM 4060

2- RICOH 5300

3 - XEROX VERSANT 180

at the bottom the primelink c9065 because it looks like an office printer on steroids.

I still haven't seen the XEROX machines, I'm doing that on Friday, but going on YouTube I get that impression.

 

[Puch]

KM's own controller (Hikari) is absolutely OK, we've downgraded' from Fiery and there have been no issues at all. Of course, there are thing which are handled differently, so you might have a (mild) learning curve, if you switch. The advantages IMHO is that it's a true browser-based system (no need to install hefty Java applications), can be accessed from anywhere. Calibration (and color profiling) is handled via a dedicated application called ColorCentro, which is NOT a paid option, it's yours by default. It even has iterative color control, so you can reach a very high precision of color (contract proof level).

I've never heard of Ricoh or Xerox supporting 10+ years old machines via contract. Here in CE, they're as cruel as any other vendors, pushing you to buy new tech, even if you don't need it.

 

[Ynot_UK]

1- KM 4060

There isn't a C4060. There is the C4065 which is the current "light production" version with limited feeding & finishing options, then next up you have the full size C4070 and C4080 versions.

You mentioned the C8000 - that machine is a well known and well documented rogue, not one of KM's finest moments. There's lots of articles on this and other forums about that model. The C1060 you have been using was a generation after the C8000 and a game changer.

You don't have to use the OEM direct channel, there's always the option to work with an authorised reseller/dealer. We have "grown up" on KM machines over the past 15 years and only have good experiences, all via a trusted and first class dealer. Last week we ordered a C4080 (with KM controller) through this dealer. Purely for comparative/negotiating purposes, we also made enquiries via the OEM direct channel to compare offerings and very much disliked the ethos and attitude of the two individuals handling our enquiry. High pressure sales techniques, belittling and dismissive are adjectives that come to mind.

The advantage of building up a relationship with a dealer is, in our experience, they will understand your business/goals and keep your machines running as long as sourcing parts & consumables permits. Theoretically, with your low volumes, if you buy a new model now, it will be current for 2-3 years then supported with parts/consumables for 7 years from the machine being discontinued, so achieving 10 years use from the asset is very possible.

 

[zebriu]

KM's own controller (Hikari) is absolutely OK, we've downgraded' from Fiery and there have been no issues at all. Of course, there are thing which are handled differently, so you might have a (mild) learning curve, if you switch. The advantages IMHO is that it's a true browser-based system (no need to install hefty Java applications), can be accessed from anywhere. Calibration (and color profiling) is handled via a dedicated application called ColorCentro, which is NOT a paid option, it's yours by default. It even has iterative color control, so you can reach a very high precision of color (contract proof level).

I've never heard of Ricoh or Xerox supporting 10+ years old machines via contract. Here in CE, they're as cruel as any other vendors, pushing you to buy new tech, even if you don't need it.

I agree the KM controller seems to handle the job, hopefully the other brands have something like that.



The 10 year support, ill let you know when I see it in writing

 

[zebriu]

There isn't a C4060. There is the C4065 which is the current "light production" version with limited feeding & finishing options, then next up you have the full size C4070 and C4080 versions.

You mentioned the C8000 - that machine is a well known and well documented rogue, not one of KM's finest moments. There's lots of articles on this and other forums about that model. The C1060 you have been using was a generation after the C8000 and a game changer.

You don't have to use the OEM direct channel, there's always the option to work with an authorised reseller/dealer. We have "grown up" on KM machines over the past 15 years and only have good experiences, all via a trusted and first class dealer. Last week we ordered a C4080 (with KM controller) through this dealer. Purely for comparative/negotiating purposes, we also made enquiries via the OEM direct channel to compare offerings and very much disliked the ethos and attitude of the two individuals handling our enquiry. High pressure sales techniques, belittling and dismissive are adjectives that come to mind.

The advantage of building up a relationship with a dealer is, in our experience, they will understand your business/goals and keep your machines running as long as sourcing parts & consumables permits. Theoretically, with your low volumes, if you buy a new model now, it will be current for 2-3 years then supported with parts/consumables for 7 years from the machine being discontinued, so achieving 10 years use from the asset is very possible.

Yap, you are right 1060- 4080... my mistake... 4th generation 80 pages a minute...



We have a KM reseller that works with us on other products, and we have a very good relation with them, the thing is, KM Portugal is in charge, they can pressure a bit but to a certain point and that's a thing I'm afraid.



I'm suffering from the "scalded cat" syndrome

No dough and for the record, me and my staff, we all love the machine, the thing is the brand and their support

 

[Ynot_UK]

The 10 year support, ill let you know when I see it in writing

You won't get 10 years in writing from anyone, OEM or dealer.
I indicated that 10 years is achievable, when buying a newly introduced machine at the start of its tenure, when considering the sum of time it being a current model plus 7 years availability of parts & consumables from the date it is discontinued. There is a difference.
There are of course shops running kit beyond this, sourcing second hand parts and consumables off ebay, craigslist, etc. Although its likely you'll want newer technology long before 10 years is up and the machine should have earned you its keep many times over by then.

 

[zebriu]

You won't get 10 years in writing from anyone, OEM or dealer.
I indicated that 10 years is achievable, when buying a newly introduced machine at the start of its tenure, when considering the sum of time it being a current model plus 7 years availability of parts & consumables from the date it is discontinued. There is a difference.
There are of course shops running kit beyond this, sourcing second hand parts and consumables off ebay, craigslist, etc. Although its likely you'll want newer technology long before 10 years is up and the machine should have earned you its keep many times over by then.

So true.

But has we are still in the best seat to negotiate it's the time to put all that clear.

After the sell its back to old habits



Thank you for your help and ill let you know the rest

 

[Shaare]

Greetings from Vancouver I'm a tech for Xerox. I work with PrimeLink and Versants all day long. For decades. The PrimeLink and the Versant both will allow you to control densities, which is a requirements for your kind of stocks. You'd want a professional finisher that comes with a decurler. The embedded controller on the PrimeLink has adjustments for colors but if you are in production, then use Fiery as the internal controller is more office oriented. What's nice about the Xerox is that they are easy, really easy to unjam as opposed to the competition where they need to reset the ENTIRE paper path. Oh, and the 10bit in the Versant gives you the best gradients in the industry... try a radial gradient on any other machines and you'll see the stepping. They are also very consistent due to self checks that runs inside. Overall, think about it this way. Its a bit like a Mac. It cost more, but the support, software and hardware is rock solid.

 

[Ynot_UK]

What's nice about the Xerox is that they are easy, really easy to unjam as opposed to the competition where they need to reset the ENTIRE paper path.

The RU-518M relay unit on the new KM 4080 series offers comparable functionality.

 

[k_graham]

I Know Fiery will give better choices "in case of emergency" to an OEM.

Now we have all the time in the world but when it starts (we hope so) I don't want to wait eternally for a file to start printing, that is money going out the door.



I'm going to look at that ongoing price part, thank you for the alert.



About KM, their policy is to cut off maintenance contracts after 7 to 8 years not more after being launched.

Even to contracts still active has it happened to me, they don't respect contracts, and I'm going to say more because this is not a laundry.

I brought my 5501 second KM Portugal with their guaranty for 5 years maintenance.

At the beginning of the 4th year they started to pressure, then cut the contract after 6 months claiming I had an old machine.

It's their policy because they did the same to a KM8000 and it's a fairly recent machine.

The KM machine is a work horse no doubt about that the problem is the assistance, buy a machine every 5 years ?

Yes if!
The machine has done millions of prints, you have got the investment return and profit to a point in pays the new one.

We are a small publicity company, the Algarve being a touristic area, we work 6 to 7 months not more.

Konica Minolta brags to be "number one" on Production printing, they have the posture of "king of the world" the last time I heard that was a guy on the titanic and look where he ended up...

Before we also had a CANON (CLC 700 if I'm not mistaken)

CANON had exactly the same posture has KM is having and has no expression at all here.

Ricoh is guarantying 10 years

Xerox is saying they have running machines with 17 years, still working, and with contract.

My choices would be

1- KM 4060

2- RICOH 5300

3 - XEROX VERSANT 180

at the bottom the primelink c9065 because it looks like an office printer on steroids.

I still haven't seen the XEROX machines, I'm doing that on Friday, but going on YouTube I get that impression.

Xerox in Canada is quoting us on the Versant 180 replacement, the 280 which is 350 gsm duplex or 400 gsm single sided, The issue with them is they have 2 Fiery RIPs, and for us they only want to quote for 5 years, after that the click charge can be ridiculous. Anyway I hate being the last purchaser in a model line, unless it comes with a healthy discount and the new features are not earth shattering.

 

[zebriu]

Xerox in Canada is quoting us on the Versant 180 replacement, the 280 which is 350 gsm duplex or 400 gsm single sided, The issue with them is they have 2 Fiery RIPs, and for us they only want to quote for 5 years, after that the click charge can be ridiculous. Anyway I hate being the last purchaser in a model line, unless it comes with a healthy discount and the new features are not earth shattering.

KM tried to quote me for a 3070, no thanks, if they whant to quote, has to be the new ( not yet in Portugal) 4070

 

[zebriu]

Hey there

After seeing Ricoh, Xerox and canon we are going with KM C4065

The decision was based on all your experiences and advices.

Ricoh C5300 — seems to be a good machine but still waiting for the final quote (in writing), if it's like to sell...

Canon C810— didn't like it at all, looks like its struggles to do the job, has the others have no problem just Minor adjustments

Xerox Versant 280— good machine, all the bells and whistles, the price was very good, but KM bitten it that by far.

KM C4065- we know the machine, is a work horse, staff knows it, price very competitive, so job done.