FSC certification

[Craig]

A "certified" printer has demonstrated that they have a system in place to prevent introducing non-conforming paper into the system.

And what's going to happen? Will they mate and make some mutant half breed paper? OMG their.... their touching each other!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh the humanity!

 

[mattf]

And just what improvement am I doing? With or without me (the printer) having the "certification" I can use products that are "certified" and run my business with environmentally sound practices. You (in the broad term) have yet to prove to anyone why it's important for the printer to get "certified".

The only thing I see is money going into some environmental extremist's bank account.

What does it prove that a printer (user of paper) has some magic "chain of custody"? Again I ask, why stop there, why doesn't this magic "chain" go to my customer who may run their letterhead through their copier? After all their printing on this "certified" paper, much the same as I do.

This magical "Certification" does not make one a better printer any more than those of us who are union shops, are better than non-union shops. Just another way to piss your money away and feel better about it.

Why is it important to be certified? Consumer recognition and characterization. Customers wish to understand what we, as printers, are doing with our business to create more environmentally sound practices. The certification, and logos, prove that we are involved in a process, larger then ourselves, that deals specifically with the management of forests. More specifically, dealing with paper mills and paper merchants who deal with lumber mills that have strict guidelines on how to manage their forests in a sustainable fashion. This mindset shows customers that we are "responsible" with the paper that we handle for their products and we buy paper from other "responsible" companies. YES I KNOW, WE ALREADY WERE DOING THAT. CUSTOMERS WANT PROOF, THIS IS A WAY TO SHOW THAT PROOF.

If you want to label it as marketing PR and a scam to line environmentalists pockets, then do so. Even though all 3 major organizations are non-profit, non-governmental organizations you can label them as huge scam artists for the tree huggers. I see it as an opportunity to show that we, as a printer, are trying to be a mature business in thinking about our environment and how we effect it instead of just bottom line income/cost. People care about that extra step.

 

[meddington]

And what's going to happen? Will they mate and make some mutant half breed paper? OMG their.... their touching each other!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh the humanity!

No mutants, but not unlike your local supermarket mixing hamburger into your ground chuck. Does it taste all that different? Perhaps not, but not what you paid for.

 

[Steve_S]

FSC not for us

FSC not for us

Do your homework and then come up with a way to show your customers that you are environmentally conscious. If you think about the fact that you are paying someone to document your environmental awarenes that is seldom, if ever, inside your facility it is ludicrous. Research all the major breakdowns in FSC "certified" mills and facilities that they are suppressing from the popular media and it will become clear. We do far above their standards at being truly environmentally safe - it is not just about the paper. Sit down and write a documentation letter that you can provide your clients and they will see your efforts for what they are. The logo is meaningless as far as we were concerned.

 

[mattf]

Do your homework and then come up with a way to show your customers that you are environmentally conscious. If you think about the fact that you are paying someone to document your environmental awarenes that is seldom, if ever, inside your facility it is ludicrous. Research all the major breakdowns in FSC "certified" mills and facilities that they are suppressing from the popular media and it will become clear. We do far above their standards at being truly environmentally safe - it is not just about the paper. Sit down and write a documentation letter that you can provide your clients and they will see your efforts for what they are. The logo is meaningless as far as we were concerned.

I hear ya, its not for everyone. Where my companies market is, what their concerns are and the type of customers we acquire it is a big thing. The paper merchants we also deal with feel its a big deal. Granted, paper is only one part of it. There is also power consumption, waste disposal, chemical usage and handling etc. There are ways to get this information, but a lot of it is not complete. Usually its up to the company itself to publish this information. Whether this is a deal breaker depends on how in depth you wish to take it.

 

[Craig]

I see it as an opportunity to show that we, as a printer, are trying to be a mature business in thinking about our environment and how we effect it instead of just bottom line income/cost. People care about that extra step.

The opportunity has ALWAYS been there. Again do you need to pay for it?

Why not start a "NEW" environmental organization... call it Green Printers or EnviroPrint, make our own logo have paper feeding in a press with leaves coming out the delivery. Then we can show the world we are environmentally responsible, as well as fiscally responsible. Oh and deep six the fees for the logo, the first stage of fiscal responsibility. Then people will care even more.

 

[Craig]

No mutants, but not unlike your local supermarket mixing hamburger into your ground chuck. Does it taste all that different? Perhaps not, but not what you paid for.

I get it, my 20lb white may pick up the red pigment from my Rocket Red Astrobright??? The hamburger analogy kind sucked.

 

[wordtothis]

I get it, my 20lb white may pick up the red pigment from my Rocket Red Astrobright??? The hamburger analogy kind sucked.

The analogy isn't that great, but the reasoning is there. The fundamental misunderstanding between our organizations and the FSC/SFI/PEFC is if we "mix" certified w/ non-certified stock, we will essentially lose money anyway. (So what difference does it make if we write down procedures or not, if we're not watching out for our own bottom lines, it doesn't really matter).
Everyone here knows the price point(s) between No. 1 and No. 2 or 3 sheets, –if you're paying for No. 1 sheets, you've probably estimated it in the cost of the job. If you've estimated it in the cost of the job, you've probably charged the customer for the No. 1 sheets. If you then print on a No. 2 or 3, not only are you running the risk of angering and potentially losing your customer, you've exposed a break in the chain-of-custody because you printed on something that (up until that point) shouldn't have been printed on.
As far as I am concerned, the chain-of-custody documentation should only cover the piece up until it has been printed (ink on paper). Once the paper has been printed, it's usually rather difficult to mistake it with another job, this you shouldn't have to worry with putting logos on invoices or whatnot, the logo is on the job, period.
The costs associated with chain-of-custody certification are bitter at best, and it never ceases to amaze me why a non-profit needs to charge so much for what should be a "free" service from them since (by virtue of their tax status) they're not interested in making any money.
Ultimately, our customers tend to want oddball things that they can't really justify to us for any other reason than to compete with their contemporaries. So, we find ourselves complying with these foolhardy systems that are more and more becoming conditions of doing business. At least it gives the auditors something to do right?

 

[meddington]

I get it, my 20lb white may pick up the red pigment from my Rocket Red Astrobright??? The hamburger analogy kind sucked.

I stand by my crappy analogy. Maybe a "Certified Organic" analogy would have been better, but I don't think any comment will make you jump on the FSC bandwagon. nor should it. Don't like it, don't do it.

 

[Ritter]

https://www.sgppartnership.org/

Before jumping onto SFI and FSC check this one out as well...

Disclaimer:
I work for a printer that is SGP certified.

 

[wordtothis]

Respect to SGP certification!
If some other organization that has nothing to do with our needs as an industry [FSC] can make rules for us to live by, then why shouldn't we be able to govern ourselves and make sure we do it in a responsible manner with issues that actually concern our industry?

 

[4STAR]

We just became FSC certified at the end of 2008 and it was not by choice. We do lots of Pharmaceutical work for Novartis and Bayer. If they say jump we jump. Its just another fad so some big wheels behind His/Hers desk can feel like they are saving the world. I think it will disappear within 2 years IMO.

 

[Craig]

I think it will disappear within 2 years IMO.

I agree, but in the mean time there will be some FSC/SFI/SGP... wallets getting fatter for no apparent reason.

 

[4STAR]

I agree, but in the mean time there will be some FSC/SFI/SGP... wallets getting fatter for no apparent reason.

I totally agree. We paid the reg. fee which was around 5K. Then we had to designate a large area for only FSC certified paper. We have done 1 job since Nov. FSC and that area sits empty with no paper and looks pretty with its FSC sign above on the wall. Its a joke.

 

[doubting_thomas]

We can't really afford the extra stocking space for FSC papers so in the event
we actually run a job requiring a claim (we have not run one yet), we'll either
recycle the left over paper, or integrate it into our non-FSC claim papers. That
way we don't have to keep a running inventory.

 

[mattf]

If you read the guidelines carefully, you don't have to designate a space devoted to certified paper. Its either "segregated" area or "clearly identifiable" labeling system. You can make an extra section for certified paper, but its not needed.

 

[Craig]

If you read the guidelines carefully, you don't have to designate a space devoted to certified paper. Its either "segregated" area or "clearly identifiable" labeling system. You can make an extra section for certified paper, but its not needed.

Oh that's a relief! After spending ALL that money for a "certification" most might not have the budget for the segregated area.

 

[Steve_S]

If you read the guidelines carefully, you don't have to designate a space devoted to certified paper. Its either "segregated" area or "clearly identifiable" labeling system. You can make an extra section for certified paper, but its not needed.

If you read the guidelines too carefully, you might get sick over all the money you just paid them to certify you and all the work you get to do to "meet" their certification. They are going to turn into a private sector OSHA-type organization. ~Just my opinion.

 

[wordtothis]

We can't really afford the extra stocking space for FSC papers so in the event
we actually run a job requiring a claim (we have not run one yet), we'll either
recycle the left over paper, or integrate it into our non-FSC claim papers. That
way we don't have to keep a running inventory.

In my experience, we didn't have to keep running inventories of certified materials, but we did need to keep records of what certified materials came in and went out. This was one of the main things they wanted to see during our surveillance audits so I kept it pretty detailed.

 

[doubting_thomas]

When we went through our internal audit the paperwork
clearly stated that we were to have an inventory sheet of FSC
stock which we planned on making a claim with available. Maybe
that represents some sort of change, or things have changed.
It was pretty clearly stated that we had to account for extra
paper when the job was completed if we planned on making a
claim in the future with that paper.