Climate change is going to happen no matter what you do. It has been going on since the earth was born. The Vostok ice core data shows a climate history of about 450,000 years with warm periods of about 5 to 25k years about every 100,000 years. We are approaching the end of this one that started about 18,000 years ago. Keep your coat handy. ;-)
Global warming - the other side of the argument
- Thread starter gordo
- Start date
Mark Flanders
Well-known member
I was trying to be humorous, and agree to disagree. Since you missed this, I will respond to "What about the volcanoes and oceans!" argument.
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Apologies for posting the details, but you asked for it.
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What the science says...
Manmade CO2 emissions are much smaller than natural emissions. However, the CO2 that nature emits (from the ocean and vegetation) is balanced by natural absorptions (again by the ocean and vegetation). Human CO2 emissions upsets the natural balance.
The carbon cycle
Consumption of vegetation by animals & microbes accounts for about 220 gigatonnes of CO2 per year. Respiration by vegetation emits around 220 Gt. The ocean releases about 330 Gt. In contrast, human emissions are only around 26.4 Gt per year.
Land plants absorb about 440 Gt of carbon per year and the ocean absorbs about 330 Gt. This keeps atmospheric CO2 levels in rough balance.
Human CO2 emissions
As for human CO2 emissions, about 40% is being absorbed, mostly by the oceans. The rest remains in the atmosphere. As a consequence, atmospheric CO2 is at its highest level over the past 800,00 years (Brook 2008). A natural change of 100ppm takes 5,000 to 20,000 years. The recent increase of 100ppm has taken just 120 years.
Carbon isotopes - the human "fingerprint"
How can we know the rising CO2 levels are due to human activity? The carbon atom has several different isotopes (eg - different number of neutrons). Carbon 12 has 6 neutrons, carbon 13 has 7 neutrons. Plants have a lower C13/C12 ratio than in the atmosphere. If rising atmospheric CO2 comes fossil fuels, the C13/C12 should be falling. Indeed this is what is occuring (Ghosh 2003) and the trend correlates with the trend in global emissions.
The ocean's diminishing ability to absorb CO2
While the ocean absorbs around half of human CO2 emissions, empirical observations reveal the oceans are losing their ability to absorb CO2.
* Quéré 2007 found that the Southern Ocean has reached its saturation point, diminishing its ability to absorb more CO2.
* Schuster 2007 found that CO2 absorption by the North Atlantic has dropped even more dramatically, halving over the past decade.
* Park 2008 found a sudden, considerable reduction in the recent uptake of CO2 in the East/Japan Sea.
If this trend continues, it potentially leads to a positive feedback where the oceans take up less CO2 leading to CO2 rising faster in the atmosphere leading to increased global warming.
----------
I'm done now. Let's talk about something else.
mf.
----
Apologies for posting the details, but you asked for it.
----
What the science says...
Manmade CO2 emissions are much smaller than natural emissions. However, the CO2 that nature emits (from the ocean and vegetation) is balanced by natural absorptions (again by the ocean and vegetation). Human CO2 emissions upsets the natural balance.
The carbon cycle
Consumption of vegetation by animals & microbes accounts for about 220 gigatonnes of CO2 per year. Respiration by vegetation emits around 220 Gt. The ocean releases about 330 Gt. In contrast, human emissions are only around 26.4 Gt per year.
Land plants absorb about 440 Gt of carbon per year and the ocean absorbs about 330 Gt. This keeps atmospheric CO2 levels in rough balance.
Human CO2 emissions
As for human CO2 emissions, about 40% is being absorbed, mostly by the oceans. The rest remains in the atmosphere. As a consequence, atmospheric CO2 is at its highest level over the past 800,00 years (Brook 2008). A natural change of 100ppm takes 5,000 to 20,000 years. The recent increase of 100ppm has taken just 120 years.
Carbon isotopes - the human "fingerprint"
How can we know the rising CO2 levels are due to human activity? The carbon atom has several different isotopes (eg - different number of neutrons). Carbon 12 has 6 neutrons, carbon 13 has 7 neutrons. Plants have a lower C13/C12 ratio than in the atmosphere. If rising atmospheric CO2 comes fossil fuels, the C13/C12 should be falling. Indeed this is what is occuring (Ghosh 2003) and the trend correlates with the trend in global emissions.
The ocean's diminishing ability to absorb CO2
While the ocean absorbs around half of human CO2 emissions, empirical observations reveal the oceans are losing their ability to absorb CO2.
* Quéré 2007 found that the Southern Ocean has reached its saturation point, diminishing its ability to absorb more CO2.
* Schuster 2007 found that CO2 absorption by the North Atlantic has dropped even more dramatically, halving over the past decade.
* Park 2008 found a sudden, considerable reduction in the recent uptake of CO2 in the East/Japan Sea.
If this trend continues, it potentially leads to a positive feedback where the oceans take up less CO2 leading to CO2 rising faster in the atmosphere leading to increased global warming.
----------
I'm done now. Let's talk about something else.
mf.
GregNac19
Well-known member
Very thoughtful and you explained this well.
The real problem with the whole Global Warming is that it is a theory that man has anything to with climate change. It is not a proven science. The problem is for every scientist who says it is true, there is a scientist debunking it.
Here a a few theories from science of the past,
1. We are the Center of the Universe ( Way wrong on that!)
2. Pregnant women and their babies would die because of to much inertia while riding in a car. (1910-1920)
3. Global cooling will kill us all (1970s I am still here)
Not all scientific theories are wrong. I just want people to look past the propganda and get a true opionion.
JaimeZ
Well-known member
Mark Flanders,
Yes your stats are compelling, but what fails me is that when I was in school (back in the 70's) the scientists of the day were telling us that our CO2's were causing the next "Ice Age" and the if we did not stop humanity would freeze itself out of existence. Today were going to heat ourselves out of existence--which is it? Over the last few years the earth is in fact cooling, so instead of Global Warming it is now Climate Change--dah! Climate changes.
Even before the Industrial Revolution, climate changed. Just in the last 1,000 years we had the Medieval Warming period that lasted from the 9th to the 14th century and is known as a time of prosperity; and the mini Ice Age that hit Europe and North America after the Medieval Warming period with it's coldest temps in the Mid 1700's. And our Carbon footprint was much much smaller then.
Another thing, yes it is dramatic to see Ice glaciers melting, like so many advocates of Globing Warming love to film and show, but do they ever show the oceans freezing back into the ice packs of the arctic and antarctic--not as exciting to see (sort of like watching paint dry), plus it would disprove their point--it is cyclical and there are just as many prominent scientists that will tell you this.
I'm not trying to deny mankind needs to find better ways of energy and ways to take care of the Earth, but we must stop running around like Chicken Little every time there is a cyclical change on Earth warning of the next catastrophe man creates when the Earth does a better job of destroying what man creates than man can.
Yes your stats are compelling, but what fails me is that when I was in school (back in the 70's) the scientists of the day were telling us that our CO2's were causing the next "Ice Age" and the if we did not stop humanity would freeze itself out of existence. Today were going to heat ourselves out of existence--which is it? Over the last few years the earth is in fact cooling, so instead of Global Warming it is now Climate Change--dah! Climate changes.
Even before the Industrial Revolution, climate changed. Just in the last 1,000 years we had the Medieval Warming period that lasted from the 9th to the 14th century and is known as a time of prosperity; and the mini Ice Age that hit Europe and North America after the Medieval Warming period with it's coldest temps in the Mid 1700's. And our Carbon footprint was much much smaller then.
Another thing, yes it is dramatic to see Ice glaciers melting, like so many advocates of Globing Warming love to film and show, but do they ever show the oceans freezing back into the ice packs of the arctic and antarctic--not as exciting to see (sort of like watching paint dry), plus it would disprove their point--it is cyclical and there are just as many prominent scientists that will tell you this.
I'm not trying to deny mankind needs to find better ways of energy and ways to take care of the Earth, but we must stop running around like Chicken Little every time there is a cyclical change on Earth warning of the next catastrophe man creates when the Earth does a better job of destroying what man creates than man can.
Creativationalisticism
New member
The First Global Revolution
The First Global Revolution
You want a REALLY interesting read? Try "The First Global Revolution" (1991) published by The Club of Rome. Here's an excerpt:
“It would seem that men and women need a common motivation, namely a common adversary, to organize and act together in the vacuum such as motivation seemed to have ceased to exist or have yet to be found. The need for enemies seems to be a common historical factor…Bring the divided nation together to face an outside enemy, either a real one or else one INVENTED for the purpose…
Democracy will be made to seem responsible for the lagging economy, the scarcity and uncertainties. The very concept of democracy could then be brought into question and allow for the seizure of power.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. The real enemy [of the elites and their minions] then is humanity itself.”
Incidentally, Al Gore was a Club of Rome member last time I checked.
The First Global Revolution
You want a REALLY interesting read? Try "The First Global Revolution" (1991) published by The Club of Rome. Here's an excerpt:
“It would seem that men and women need a common motivation, namely a common adversary, to organize and act together in the vacuum such as motivation seemed to have ceased to exist or have yet to be found. The need for enemies seems to be a common historical factor…Bring the divided nation together to face an outside enemy, either a real one or else one INVENTED for the purpose…
Democracy will be made to seem responsible for the lagging economy, the scarcity and uncertainties. The very concept of democracy could then be brought into question and allow for the seizure of power.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. The real enemy [of the elites and their minions] then is humanity itself.”
Incidentally, Al Gore was a Club of Rome member last time I checked.
Creativationalisticism
New member
Looking over this quote, it has been edited and spliced, etc. I suggest you Google the real thing for yourself.
Now, I fear that the politicians are getting ready to screw up the economy more than ever and tax us based on the aforementioned "theory" of global warming. They are using the methods described in "The First Global Revolution". We'd better get to work countering this political movement!
Should we take care of our environment?
Yes, I keep a clean house because it is healthier and more enjoyable to leave in; therefore, I want to keep a clean environment for the very same reasons. My parents used to swim in local lakes and rivers when they were younger, but would never do that now because of the trash and sewage that has been dumped in them over the years. It is a sad fact that we let things like this happen over the past fifty years and we should do everything in our power to fix this over the next fifty years.
Do I think we will destroy the earth anytime soon through normal pollution?
Nah, I think it is much more likely in the short turn we will blow it up with nuclear weapons. Maybe long term, pollution could kill us all off through climate change, but then you are competing with global pandemics, comets, asteroids, and the sun turning in to a red giant engulfing the whole planet.
Is taxing gonna make anything better?
No, it never does. Think about it, we pay more in taxes now than in the past but our education system is in decline, our infrastructure is in decline, and our economy is in decline. Taxes do not seem to be a viable way to fix anything because government institution are monetarily inefficient by design. Governments should just make and enforce laws not design envriomental ponzi schemes.
Yes, I keep a clean house because it is healthier and more enjoyable to leave in; therefore, I want to keep a clean environment for the very same reasons. My parents used to swim in local lakes and rivers when they were younger, but would never do that now because of the trash and sewage that has been dumped in them over the years. It is a sad fact that we let things like this happen over the past fifty years and we should do everything in our power to fix this over the next fifty years.
Do I think we will destroy the earth anytime soon through normal pollution?
Nah, I think it is much more likely in the short turn we will blow it up with nuclear weapons. Maybe long term, pollution could kill us all off through climate change, but then you are competing with global pandemics, comets, asteroids, and the sun turning in to a red giant engulfing the whole planet.
Is taxing gonna make anything better?
No, it never does. Think about it, we pay more in taxes now than in the past but our education system is in decline, our infrastructure is in decline, and our economy is in decline. Taxes do not seem to be a viable way to fix anything because government institution are monetarily inefficient by design. Governments should just make and enforce laws not design envriomental ponzi schemes.
dynamicprinter
Well-known member
Global warming?
One consideration that no one is looking at is population.
As the population grows so will pollution.
As the population grows more homes will be constructed (less trees), more cars will be driven, more power (utilities) will be used and more garbage (waste) will be created, etc...
I remember a little bit about how the planet was cooling back in the 70's.
Is global warming happening? probably.
Are some people making a lot of money off of this? absolutely.
Is global warming something we should be looking into? Yes
Should we change everything around us because of Global warming? HELL NO
Too many people are cashing in on this, Al Gore went from a worth of 2 million to 100 million to name 1 person. GE which owns NBC is heavily invested in alternative energy to name 1 company. NBC pushed for 1 Presidential candidate who is now pushing this global warming agenda. I'm not saying it isn't happening (global warming) but people need to step back a minute and open their eyes and look at who is cashing in on this topic.
One consideration that no one is looking at is population.
As the population grows so will pollution.
As the population grows more homes will be constructed (less trees), more cars will be driven, more power (utilities) will be used and more garbage (waste) will be created, etc...
I remember a little bit about how the planet was cooling back in the 70's.
Is global warming happening? probably.
Are some people making a lot of money off of this? absolutely.
Is global warming something we should be looking into? Yes
Should we change everything around us because of Global warming? HELL NO
Too many people are cashing in on this, Al Gore went from a worth of 2 million to 100 million to name 1 person. GE which owns NBC is heavily invested in alternative energy to name 1 company. NBC pushed for 1 Presidential candidate who is now pushing this global warming agenda. I'm not saying it isn't happening (global warming) but people need to step back a minute and open their eyes and look at who is cashing in on this topic.
My view... if you can point the finger of blame, you can make somebody pay! If you spend enough money, everyone will believe you are right! Proper propaganda will make you ALL believers
Agree. Works the same way as religion and governments does.
1- Make the people fearful of some catastrophe. (hell, terrorism, global warming, swine flu...)
2- Wave around the cure or the solution to the issue (carbon tax, phone tapping and obliterating Iraq, Rumsfelds tamiflu)
3- Instant sheep
4- Profit
May seem cynical but i am so sick of it all lately. Everything is bad. the world is ending. bla bla bla.
rbailleu
Well-known member
or maybe like the easter bunny, hops around hiding presents for small children to find.
or the tooth fairy hide money under the pillows of believers.
[/QUOTE] or the tooth fairy hide money under the pillows of believers.[/QUOTE]
Gold!!!
Cynic that i am, i still dont drive my V8 much, and turn off lights that arent needed etc... its a pretty big issue and both sides have valid points... i just cant help feeling that im getting pantsed by the ppl that benefit from the hype...
Gold!!!
Cynic that i am, i still dont drive my V8 much, and turn off lights that arent needed etc... its a pretty big issue and both sides have valid points... i just cant help feeling that im getting pantsed by the ppl that benefit from the hype...
prepressguru
Well-known member
That is one of the dumbest things I have read. So you are saying Global Warming isn't happening?? It's been happening for years is all around us.
From my own personal experience growing up in the Great White North, we are seeing shorter winters, less snow coverage. Summers are becoming hotter. Hardly ever did we see summer days around 30, which now have become normal and 35 is consider hot.
Craig
Well-known member
I personally can't wait for the polar ice caps to melt, then I'll have ocean front property!!!!
Oh, buy the way it's not called Global Warming anymore.... it's CLIMATE CHANGE, that way it covers ALL aspects. Great CYA for the PC crowd!!!!!
Clean air and clean water are over rated too!
Oh, buy the way it's not called Global Warming anymore.... it's CLIMATE CHANGE, that way it covers ALL aspects. Great CYA for the PC crowd!!!!!
Clean air and clean water are over rated too!
Morning Flight
Well-known member
Craig
Well-known member
But Washington DC will be under water..... see there is a silver lining to every dark cloud!!!
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