HP not following US Law--Selling to Iran

War is war. Business is business. Do not try to cross and struck them.
US Gvrmnt has a lot of bad samples in their own history as well.
BTW Printer is NOT a gun.
 
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It might seem harmless to sell printers. But to sell this type of equipment to the infidels is literally like selling them WMDs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE HAVE AN EXCUSE, LETS INVADE!!!!

But seriously. The US government loves to sanction countries that don't drum to their beat. Then the media will twist it however they wish to up their ratings. Its the old mentality of the Reds vs. the free world. We are the free world, the people over on the other side with different views, different culture and different way of life are a threat to that. How that works I still can't figure.

Vlad has a good point. War is seperate from most businesses. There are of course war-profiteering companies, but for the most part they are a select few in the many. If we accepted the United States old idea of free market we'd be fine. Who cares if we sell printers to Iran, they are buying it right? They are contributing to the American economy right?

But I digress, government loves to get its nose into everything it can. Maybe we should ask them how printers will contribute to the "insurgency" that Iran is. I'll be happy to get back to the economy thank you kindly.
 
where is that hp printer made. probably in asia. along with the printed box and manuals. hp may make some profit, but how will it really help the us economy. we need to build stuff in the us. manufacturing jobs grow the economy more than any other. a few years ago I got on a buy american kick. sold my made in mexico buick and bought a made in wisconsin gmc. now they just closed the plant that they made my yukon. also the yukon runs ethanol made in the us. my car uses less oil than a prius. but I digress. we should sell everything we can to everyone we can. the us made a nuclear device in the 1940s when a decent computer did not exist. how can we say selling a computer of any type to anyone is going to help them make a nuclear or other weapon. I can understand not selling certain chemicals and ready made weapons parts. I doubt you can make a missile guidance system from a laser printer more cost effectively than just buying an amd 286 clone and making your own gyroscope. although hp is known for its high quality spinner motors. I guess it would be better to sell them the hp than for them to build a quality guidance system that might actually hit a target.
 
Interesting comments. I guess I have problem with Iranian government and the HP thing is one more reason not to like the government of Iran.

Yes, I am a "Free Trader" myself and believe that we should sell as much of what is produced in the US as possible. And I agree with rbailleu that it is a murky market place out there. American companies have manufacturing plants outside the US and foreign companies have plants here in the US. In fact, Toyota has a large presence in the US with five major assembly plants in Alabama, Kentucky, Indiana, Texas and West Virginia--I bet those states aren't complaining.

What I find it irritating, though, is the US bashers: many live in the US, take advantage of the freest and best country in the world to live in and still talk bad about it. Frankly, my attitude, whether they're natural born or immigrants is, if you do not like this country leave it! Those who don't live here, like some of our fellow graphic arts professionals to the north, also have a beef with the US--my suspicion is that they wish they lived here. I'm so grateful that my father had a dream to come to this wonderful country and worked hard once here and gave me the opportunity to live and run a business; yes I am foreign born and as beautiful as Ecuador, SA is, I would never want to live there--just visit it--because this is by far the best country ever. I also know that the US is far from perfect, but I dare anyone show me a better country. Here, an orphaned man, with an eighth grade education and little English skills can eventually own a business like my father did.
 
about the toyota plants. I think its great that toyota, honda, and others are building cars here. I have a friend in southern Illinois(everything south of I80 if you ask the chicago people). anyway he is a manager at a foreign owned auto parts manufacturer. their work force has been cut in half as well. so the foreign auto makers are not selling cars either. any way the whole world is going to be having issues if the US does not get its crap together. germany wont be selling presses and cars. china won't be selling 50% of what it makes. I think the politicians are going to get it wrong on cap and trade. they are going to cap and trade the US. but then let us buy goods from china that follows no rules on CO2 emissions. We ought to cap and trade all imports first. then we might make some stuff in the US again.
 
USA made

USA made

Japanese car makers on American soil have an unfair advantage over the big 3 USA car makers. I vote we bring jobs home to the USA. The USA has suffered long enough with the bashers and the users of our freedoms and democracy way of life.
A Honda built in the USA costs say $29,000.00. Honda pays its worker to build the car here and they pay them lower wages and benefits than the UAW does. Why we as the USA give these foreign car companies tax breaks and incentives to build their products here is beyond me. We are missing the opportunity to tax them to import these products.
If I could I would remove any tax breaks these Japanese car makers on USA soil get and create a domestic import tax. That would help bail out the big 3 also. Please do not offer the argument Japanese cars are better, I have owned one and I never will again. It was a POS!
On a print related note look at what Presstek did to the AB Dick Co. AB Dick was the last manufacturer of printing equipment in the USA. They had large facilities to produce equipment and the AB Dick employees with the knowhow, but instead they chose to let Ryobi in Japan build their boxes to house their CTP systems. Another great USA company that could offer jobs and a production facility in the USA gone.
The USA needs to stop being a floor mat for the world and stand up and be the world power we are. If there is a WW3 who will build our tanks? Honda? Toyota? I doubt it.
OG
 
To: offsetguy

Japanese car manufacturers were required to build factories in the US in order to avoid high import tariffs and to protect jobs for American auto workers since the American auto manufacturers were not producing cars that American buyers wanted compared to what the Japanese were producing. Currently there are more American made parts in a Toyota than in a Ford Mustang - so which is the American car?. I don't know whether Honda pays its workers lower wages and benefits than the UAW does. But, according to the UAW, wages represent less than 10% of the cost of manufacturing a car. Neither employee wages or foreign manufacture are the reason the BIG 3 are having problems. Taxing imports will not solve their problems, it will just mean they can continue to manufacture cars that fewer people want.
When manufacturers build products that don't have a market wanting or needing their products - they shouldn't be bailed out by taxpayers - they rightfully deserve to go out of business.
I believe that in the American system, most businesses are expected to return a profit in order to stay in business. If they choose to do so by outsourcing to other countries to lower their costs then it is their fiduciary duty to do so.
When WalMart comes to town and the local small shops whither and die - that is not WalMart's fault - it is the fault of all the customers that choose to buy from WalMart rather than their local shops. Sending in tax money to support those small shops does not solve the problem - it just prolongs it.
As a customer, you always have the choice to buy American-made or not. Simply make that a requirement for your purchase orders. And if American-made is not available, then I guess you have the choice about which country your product was made in so that you at least support only the lesser of the available evils.

J
 
I own four cars: two Toyotas, one Ford and one Saturn.

My 1995 Ford Contour is sitting at my mechanics shop awaiting an electrical component that Ford in its infinite wisdom stopped making; this part was only used in the 95 model so we can't even use another model year. We have replaced the engine once and the transmission twice over the last thirteen years.

My Saturn will be towed to my mechanic in a couple days because it will not start; this car has had less problems with it until now.

Both of my Toyotas on the other hand are running great: my 1992 Corolla and my 2000 Four Runner. I will admit I had to replace the engine on my Corolla once when I stupidly forgot to change the oil in a timely manner, burning out the engine--operator neglect, my bad.

I want to buy a well built American car to replace my Contour, but my Toyotas are so much better built that I find it difficult to buy from one of the Big Three.

As for the UAW they have shot themselves in the foot. When a factory line has to shut down for an hour because only a maintenance employee is allowed to mop up a puddle created by a can of coke that is spilled from a line worker. When a laid off employee gets 95% of their pay for months after the layoff. How about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they lallygag, so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time, for a job they easily could have been done within their normal 40 hour week. Or line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics; for putting out too many parts on a shift; and for being too productive (mustn't expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?).

And offsetguy I understand your hatred toward Presstek and I agree that Presstek futher ruined a once great company in ABDick. We have two ABDicks ourselves: the "Sherman Tank" of the industry the 360 and its cousin the 8820 with a T-head. They're great presses! But long before P-Tek (as you have been known to call them), ABDick's management made some pretty bad decisions to begin its demise.

As for WW3, if it happens it will be fought with nuclear bombs (which the US builds) and we will have no need for Japan to build us tanks.

And finally, I want to touch on the machine shops. At my local church there are three owners that own machine shops and they are so busy each running three shifts. The myth that we are manufacturing less and less is not true. These guys a very efficient and are turning out a great product for the aerospace and medical industries. I admire their efficiency and innovation. Americans have long produced great products and will continue to build great products as long as they are not hampered by over regulation or unions that want power instead of helping the people they represent.
 
first let me say unions helped make this country great. the unions did a great thing at a time when workers needed a break. recently they have become a problem. but the blame should be placed with management of the company as well. you can't have a contract that says you can't fired some one that does not do the job. unions protect the bad workers along with the good ones. I know guys that were laid off from a union shop for damn good reasons. went out worked for a non union shop for 2 or 3 months until their grievances went through. the employer was forced to hire them back with back pay. so not only were they working they got paid from the employer for not working. I see guys out on strike working as scab carpenters hurting union carpenters. but enough of that. I personally have never owned anything but chrysler, ford or gm. but my grandmother had a 1980's toyota corolla and while similar in quality to my plymouth reliant K it was in the shop 4 or 5 times a year. and she only drove it 8000 miles a year. I was fixing a flat tire on it once and the whole lug bolt snapped off. but this is all anecdotal. People are creatures of habbit. some love ford. some live and breath mopar. others its got to be a porsche. We live in an area with a lot of americans of german decent. we had a heidelberg employee in that pulled the chevy logo off the back of his car and put the new Heidelberg logo letter on the trunk. we had 2 customer in the shop that day asking where they could get the new heidelberg auto.

now you can't tax imports more than you tax local goods. the rest of the world would tax the USA out of existance, but you can get rid of income tax and put in a vat tax like european counties. you can give incentives to build in the us. you can also put a carbon tax on all goods. I don't like the greenies, but the enviromental tax would level the playing field. and maybe build some wind turbines.

america is top heavy. as we like to say too many chiefs and not enough indians. we need to lose 10% of government work force. we need to get rid of the government hand outs. let the big banks go under guarantee the assets. sell assets to someone that runs a good company. let gm and chrysler file for reorganization. some one will buy those plants and build cars in them. if I go out of business some one buys my presses and starts printing. life goes on.

offset guy: people keep buying the presstek razors. but eventually presstek will have to come up with something better or they will go under.
 
reply

reply

Hey guys,
Your opinions and thoughts you so eloquently display here have been interesting to read. Life is too short to get into a rhetorical conversation like this one. I will continue to wave my USA flag and support our car makers and all the great USA printing companies I deal with.
The AB Dick managers made bad decisions? Please elaborate on that comment. What did they do wrong? Why did they deserve to be wiped out by Presstek? When Ptek could have produced the machines here in the USA. They went from Heidelberg to Ryobi? I wonder why?
Happy New Year
OG
 
i think the reason presstek went with ryobi is 2 fold one they bought abdick and they were already being made by ryobi. and 2 heidelberg probably said this is it we aren't making another machine. I am not sure on the time line when the ryobi di came out. probably about the time of the qmdi plus. by then heidelberg was about to drop the di. heck heidelberg only sold about 3000 di's hardly a great market. I don't know how many di pro machine heidelberg ever built but I doubt it was over 1000

I would love to buy an american press or copier, but one does not exist. i did buy a stahl b20 usa. I can't believe heidelberg has a press assembly facility in china, probably the only way to stop china from making something similar.
 
rbailleu said:
i think the reason presstek went with ryobi is 2 fold one they bought abdick and they were already being made by ryobi.

I would love to buy an american press or copier, but one does not exist. .
Click to expand...

Some comments about press manufacturing in North America.

I am a mechanical engineer and I had to develop a science to explain the process in offset presses with respect to density control (consistency and predictability). One reason for having to do this was that it had not been done before. The problem that engineers have, who are involved with designing printing presses is that they do not have the rules required to make presses perform in mathematically predictable ways. They tend to then just use common practice as a guide. This has resulted in all press manufacturers designing basically the same press. They copy each other and this results in the sameness of press design. When these companies try to go away from the standard concept, they get in trouble and waste money.

In North America, there are probably thousands of Engineering schools teaching the basic science needed for designing all of the technologies we have. Computers, aerospace, chemicals, plastics, etc. the list goes on and on. But there is not one engineering school that teaches press design in North America. In Germany there are engineering schools that are specifically covering press design but it seems that they are more directed at the quality of the mechanical design and manufacturing and not the science of what should be done. The evidence to this is that they have not provided breakthroughs.

There are North American press manufacturers but they are mainly web press manufacturers. I had tried to interest ABDick about 7 years ago in the new science and in new technology but even at that time, I think they were going to presses built in Japan. As with all North American press manufacturers, there was no interest at ABDick to develop something different which would perform better.

My view is that engineers at press manufacturers are not really interested in innovation. Think about it. Why would an engineer want to work for a company in an industry that tends to be satisfied with the same press concept decade after decade? Innovative engineers do not stay in those kinds of companies.

So one has this sad situation where there has not been a source of knowledge for engineers to tap into to help them make innovative products and coupled with the fact that the engineers doing press design do not really want to be bothered with any new knowledge that would force them to innovate.

Of course, getting the right people in a company and getting them to work in a particular direction is the responsibility of management. Management in ABDick and other similar press manufacturers is the reason they don't excel in press design. They had no vision to do that. It was easier to continue doing nothing new and then to buy and re-brand Japanese technology.

It is sad but it is a self inflicted injury.
 
it comes down to laziness on the part of everyone. no original thought. like the ceo that figures he does not have to rock the boat because he knows in 2 years he is going somewhere else with 20million in the bank. heck give me 10 million and watch me retire.
 
rbailleu said:
I can't believe heidelberg has a press assembly facility in china, probably the only way to stop china from making something similar.
Click to expand...

Heidelberg makes presses there just for China, there are a lot of rules and regulations to sell things into China. If they didn't have a plant there they probably wouldn't sell many presses because of the cost to manufacture, transportation, tariffs and other fees. None of the presses made there get sent to the US. It's the same thing with Goss, a competitor said our new press was being made in China and is going to be a piece. The reality is this press is made in Durham, New Hampshire USA.
 
UAW members are making about $75.00 hr with all the benefits. they don't care if they face a layoff as they get about 80% of what they made when they worked. Another union benefit?

Toyota and Saturn are paying non union members about $28.00 hr with all the benefits.

Not exactly minimum wage.

Printes sent Iran are for war maps better to have full color maps than something on the back of a camel hide.
 
jwilson@tracypress said:
UAW members are making about $75.00 hr with all the benefits. they don't care if they face a layoff as they get about 80% of what they made when they worked. Another union benefit?
Toyota and Saturn are paying non union members about $28.00 hr with all the benefits.
Not exactly minimum wage.
Printes sent Iran are for war maps better to have full color maps than something on the back of a camel hide.
Click to expand...

According to USA Today (maybe you have more recent figures):
6/22/2007 By Yuri Kageyama, AP Business Writer
NAGOYA, Japan – At a time when Detroit's Big Three are pushing to slash labor costs, Toyota sees no need to rein in wages and benefits.
Jim Press, who on Friday officially became the first non-Japanese to join Toyota Motor Corp.'s board, ruled out wage cuts for the company's U.S. auto workers, instead stressing the potential for growth in North America.
[SNIP]
He rejected recent speculation that Toyota may lower the pay of its American assembly line workers.
[SNIP]
The three American automakers generally pay about 30 percent more per hour in wage, pension and health care costs than Japanese automakers.
Ford, according to its annual report, paid $70.51 per hour in wages and benefits to workers last year. GM's annual report says its labor costs average $73.26 per hour, while Chrysler's costs average $75.86 -- all well above the average $48 hourly cost incurred by Toyota, Honda and Nissan.

BTW, The Iranian printers that I have met, have concerns and business needs just like printers everywhere. The only difference, that I encountered was that no "Israeli/Jewish" people could be in the meetings. Hmmm, I seem to remember the attempt to smear Barack Obama during the recent elections by implying/proclaiming he was a Muslim. I guess the implication is that, if you are a Muslim that somehow disqualifies you from becoming President of the US.
Same difference.

gordo (not affiliated with Kodak)
 
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