I bought a KM6501 in Dec and now need second machine

[grouimaging]

I bought our first color print for pay printer in December 08, a KM 6501 and now we need a second machine and we are looking for something that is better for registration and skew than what the KM6501 can do.

I need a recomendation as to which color copier will offer the tightest registration and least image skew in the $50k to $100k range. Thanks in advance

Right now we are told on the KM that a 2mm skew on a 18" side of a 12x18 image is within specification and we need a machine that will be much better than this.

 

[UberTech]

What area are you in?

 

[cosmo]

2mm is not really that bad, what exactly are you printing that needs to be much closer than that?

 

[lkl7255]

Hi there! The spec for the Xerox 700 registration is +/- 1mm and it is within that price range.

If you need to get the registration right on:
It has a feature called "Registration and Alignment Profiles" that let's you make adjustments if you need to fine tune that. You can adjust both side 1 and side 2 by shifting images up, down, left, right, you can adjust for skew (rotation), paper stretch/magnification...

If you have a skewing or registration issue with a particular kind of stock type, weight, or size, you can assign the profile to the trays you run the stock out of and the machine will make those adjustments on every job (instead of the work being needed in prepress/at the RIP).

 

[grouimaging]

reply

reply

Ubertech: We are in the Phoenix Area

Cosmo: We are printing postcards 4/4 and businesscards 4/4 and the 2mm issues are killing us n those jobs so we were hoping to move critical jobs to what will become our second machine

lkl7255: The spec on the KM is also 1mm, but what they did not tell me was that was on a 8.5x11 and that it expands on a 12x18 to 2mm. I had a tech this week tell me that they had just been told in a meeting that the 2mm skew on one side can compound into a total of 4mm off when duplexing and that is still within their specs. Will the Xerox 700 go up to 300gsm paper stock? I thought it was designed for somewhat lighter stock. We run a lot of 12pt stock that is 300gsm.

I could deal with the KM with it's registration adjustments if it would only be able to print straight, without skew

We are dealing with Hughes Calihan Konica Minolta, a Konica Minolta owned company. Hughes-Calihan Konica Minolta, Inc.

I looked last night at what a Canon c6000 costs and it is way up there like about $150k. Also a Xerox 7000ap is about $245k. Ouch. I am needing to run 12pt media and duplex it and keep it in registration and skew. Does my requirement drive me into these price points?

 

[Pioneer]

I'm a little surprised.

I'm a little surprised.

My 2 year old KM5600 has about 2 million clicks on it running mostly 12 x 18 sheets, and when I cut the stacks on the guillotine I can see I've bisected about 80% of the crop marks. One tip I can offer is to make sure your paper trays are adjusted right where the paper feeds at the top of the stack. If you have one or more high volume trays, BEFORE you load the bulk stack, lift up a sheet to the top where the air-assist stops keep the paper from flying up and arch the paper slightly left-to-right so that you eliminate any sag front-to-back. This will assure that you are adjusting to the actual paper width. If you carefully adjust the width guides so they're snug but not dragging you should get a very consistent image.

 

[lkl7255]

Grouimaging--

Yes, the Xerox 700 prints up to 300gsm (110 lb. Cover), but it's max DUPLEX weight is 220gsm (80 lb. Cover), so anything heavier than 220gsm you'd have to send through a second time.

The Xerox 700 is within the price range you stated, but not the DocuColor 7000AP. The 5000AP is around $133K (LIST price), so that is a little higher as well (it does print 2-sided automatically on the 300gsm, stays at rated speed, and has the alignment profiles too).

BUT to stay within your price, if you run a lot of two sided jobs (like the postcards and business cards) on 300gsm, I'd recommend you add a high-capacity stacker and 2-tray feeder module that holds 4,000 sheets of the oversized heavyweight stock you'd most likely print on... With those additions (and either a Creo, EFI, or FreeFlow RIP) you'd be at the higher end of your price range with the Xerox 700, but still within it.

What volume are you thinking you'd run per month? Monthly volume I think would be a big driver for you to move to a higher price point. But 4/4 300gsm with some fine tuning for registration (if needed) is doable on the Xerox 700... my only concern is the typical run length of your jobs.

 

[UberTech]

Ubertech:
lkl7255: The spec on the KM is also 1mm, but what they did not tell me was that was on a 8.5x11 and that it expands on a 12x18 to 2mm. I had a tech this week tell me that they had just been told in a meeting that the 2mm skew on one side can compound into a total of 4mm off when duplexing and that is still within their specs.

If I told my customers this the next conversation would be about when the truck was coming to pick the machine up. Do you cut down your own paper? Is it square? what grain is it? Do you have A PF unit or are you using the bypass tray?

 

[grouimaging]

km config

km config

I have a km6501 with the the high capacity trays 4 and 5 that each hold 3k sheets. I have a folder/postinserter, the large saddlestitch unit, and the perfectbind unit. I bought the perfect bind unit as a speculative product (I have no real use for that yet, but will exploit it soon).

I like the output on the Km and we are happy with everything but the registration and the skew.

We do not cut down our own paper. usuing c2s 12x18 Tango usually I believe the grain is short.

We installed the first week of December and are sitting on 160k in impressions now. We started with no small format printing at all as an existing base. This equipment did not replace anything we were already doing. We are creating our market as we go. We mainly work with churches accross the country doing wide format printing on vinyl and dye sublimation cloth. this is a new market for us to get into with the same customer base. Lots of postcards and business cards. You can see our main business at Group Imaging - Banners, Displays, Business Cards, Poscards and More

 

[grouimaging]

xerox 700

xerox 700

Does the Xerox 700 run at half speed on heavy stock?

 

[grouimaging]

1mm reg on Xerox 700

1mm reg on Xerox 700

Hi there! The spec for the Xerox 700 registration is +/- 1mm and it is within that price range.

QUOTE]

Is that registration spec for 8.5x11 or 12x18? On the KM they are telling me that it is 1m on 8.5x11 but it is 2mm on 12x18

 

[UberTech]

I have a km6501 with the the high capacity trays 4 and 5 that each hold 3k sheets. I have a folder/postinserter, the large saddlestitch unit, and the perfectbind unit. I bought the perfect bind unit as a speculative product (I have no real use for that yet, but will exploit it soon).

I like the output on the Km and we are happy with everything but the registration and the skew.

We do not cut down our own paper. usuing c2s 12x18 Tango usually I believe the grain is short.

We installed the first week of December and are sitting on 160k in impressions now. We started with no small format printing at all as an existing base. This equipment did not replace anything we were already doing. We are creating our market as we go. We mainly work with churches accross the country doing wide format printing on vinyl and dye sublimation cloth. this is a new market for us to get into with the same customer base. Lots of postcards and business cards. You can see our main business at Group Imaging - Banners, Displays, Business Cards, Poscards and More

Without seeing the machine I can say nothing more than this is unusual. If your dealer is in fact owned by KM then they should be able to call in a specialist.

I have seen other posts on here where users have had similar experiences and this has resulted in a poorly installed paper feed deck. From experience they do need a bit of fine-tuning at installation but usually fine after that.

Im sure if you tell your supplier that you are going to a competitor they will find some added incentive to fix your machine.

 

[vwrome]

Demo the Ricoh C900. Also talk to a Ricoh rep I believe there should be a production 55ppm and 70 ppm early April.

 

[BackLight Production]

I would look at the new Ricoh C900, don't worry about the price just evaluate it on the Front to Back issue and copy quality first, then you can negociate. I have seen production samples and the F2B was outstanding, also the machine does not slow down on heavier stocks. Check out the Canon 6000 as well and/or a used Canon 7000. As far a pricing is concerned you might want to check with IKON in your area as they are no longer Canon Dealers but they do service all Canon Equipment that they have sold and most likely would have a deal on a Canon Box. Just some thoughts....

 

[ian]

Better Registration

Better Registration

I am not sure who is giving you the information that the Xerox 700 can register better than the Minolta 6500 caus I have been posting up here for a while now and those specs are for 24lb bond, also the registration can double when printing on cardstock and vary again depending on environmental conditions.

We just had a meeting with the service managers/sales reps and specialists and they all came to the conclusion that this is not a production machine and if you want to register from front to the back, the machine is not for you unless you run 8.5" x 11" bond paper. And of course since we signed the lease they will not take the machine back.

As for the highcap trays.. they have the same registration problems. Just to recap, is 1mm per side for registration shift and then 1.5mm/side for skew shift on 8.5" x 11" which can mean upto 3mm shift per side on 12" x 18" sheet. Since you are working for Xerox you need to get the facts correct!!!

Ian

Grouimaging--

Yes, the Xerox 700 prints up to 300gsm (110 lb. Cover), but it's max DUPLEX weight is 220gsm (80 lb. Cover), so anything heavier than 220gsm you'd have to send through a second time.

The Xerox 700 is within the price range you stated, but not the DocuColor 7000AP. The 5000AP is around $133K (LIST price), so that is a little higher as well (it does print 2-sided automatically on the 300gsm, stays at rated speed, and has the alignment profiles too).

BUT to stay within your price, if you run a lot of two sided jobs (like the postcards and business cards) on 300gsm, I'd recommend you add a high-capacity stacker and 2-tray feeder module that holds 4,000 sheets of the oversized heavyweight stock you'd most likely print on... With those additions (and either a Creo, EFI, or FreeFlow RIP) you'd be at the higher end of your price range with the Xerox 700, but still within it.

What volume are you thinking you'd run per month? Monthly volume I think would be a big driver for you to move to a higher price point. But 4/4 300gsm with some fine tuning for registration (if needed) is doable on the Xerox 700... my only concern is the typical run length of your jobs.

 

[ian]

Hi there! The spec for the Xerox 700 registration is +/- 1mm and it is within that price range.

QUOTE]

Is that registration spec for 8.5x11 or 12x18? On the KM they are telling me that it is 1m on 8.5x11 but it is 2mm on 12x18

You need to bite the bullet like we did and get a production machine like the Xerox 5000/7000/8000 or the Rico C900. As for the cannon I still haven't seen a single sheet that registers.

Ian

 

[lkl7255]

Does the Xerox 700 run at half speed on heavy stock?

Yes, you are correct! There is a difference between coated and uncoated as well.

Uncoated (8.5x11):
70ppm (up to 176gsm)
51ppm (from 176 - 256gsm)
35ppm (257 - 300gsm)

Coated (8.5x11):
51ppm (up to 176gsm)
35ppm (from 176 - 300gsm)

A lot of people think the Xerox 700 is faster than the 5000AP because of the starting point on the lighter stock. But the 5000AP is way more productive because it stays at 50ppm up to 300gsm coated stock (and prints 2-sided automatically up to 300gsm)

I am checking on the registration for you. I have never been told there is a different spec for oversized sheets, so I am checking on that.

 

[lkl7255]

grouimaging--

I was asking about your monthly volume because if the MAJORITY of your jobs are 2-sided 300gsm 12x18, then I would definitely say to move the next step up to a DocuColor. The Xerox 700 is best if a high percentage of jobs are of mid - heavyweight paper (60lb Cover - 80 lb. Cover / 220gsm). It can definitely run the heavyweight stock, but I wouldn't run that stock on it 24/7 unless the runs are small in length.

 

[lkl7255]

Hi Ian,

All of our specs are to 8.5x11 90gsm (paper tray capacity, etc). And of course, environmental conditions effect any paper and any machine if it isn't controlled. I know registration can vary depending on the paper tray (ie. the ByPass tray on the DocuColor260 is 3mm). I have never heard of a difference spec for 8.5x11 vs. 12x18, but I am checking into it.

And of course since we signed the lease they will not take the machine back.
Ian

If you want, send me a message and I will see if I can help you.

As for the highcap trays.. they have the same registration problems. Just to recap, is 1mm per side for registration shift and then 1.5mm/side for skew shift on 8.5" x 11" which can mean upto 3mm shift per side on 12" x 18" sheet.
Ian

If my previous post I included a section on Alignment Profiles that allow you to adjust both side 1 and side 2. You can shift both sides 2mm in either direction... meaning you can fix a 4mm mis-registration. I have never seen it register that poorly. Sounds like you are saying it can be up to 6mm; is that an issue you were having?

If you or anyone else reading these posts come to On Demand or Print 09, I will demonstrate this registration profile feature for you. Ask for Lindsay.

Since you are working for Xerox you need to get the facts correct!!!
Ian

I am just trying to help... There is nothing I have said in this post that is inaccurate. The only difference is that you decided to try to elaborate on something…

 

[lkl7255]

Registration confirmed!

Registration confirmed!

Hello Grouimaging and Ian,

I spoke with our technical folks.
I have confirmed that the +/- 1 mm spec is for 8.5x11, 11x17, and 12x18. It does not matter what size stock.

That spec is for 90gsm (same with all our specs).

The registration for heavier weights really should not be off by much more; however, if you run heavier weight stocks, during set-up the technician can register the paper drawers that you plan on running that stock out of to fine-tune that registration.

If then you want to run a lighterweight stock, you can use the alignment profiles to make minor adjustments since then your trays are registered for heavier weight.