I need some advice abou Black and white machine

[Aurelio4783]

Hi, at the moment I have a small company of digital printing, and I'm interesting in to buy a new
machine for print books.
I don't need a fast machine because I don't usually do many copies but I need high quality and
good registration in double side.
I think I can spend about 30.000 Euros.
Thanks and Excuse for my bad English, I'm writing from Spain, in the City of Granada.

 

[Zwicker Press]

When you say Books, do you mean saddle stitch or perfect bound?
What size sheets?
How many pages?
Heavy Covers?
Gloss?
All things to consider.

 

[Aurelio4783]

ok, I mean perfect bound and handback, we usually print in 12x18 and we will do the finishing offline because
we have a Finishing company. The Heavy Covers we`re printing in our Docucolor 260. We're looking for a machine for
print in paper offset in Black and white. Normaly 100 books about 200pages more or less.
Thanks

 

[lfelton]

I don't think there is any machine that costs less than about 100,000 euros that will do a 100% acceptable job for this kind of work. You can look at the cheaper Xerox machines like the 4112/4127 and they will do a job that is acceptable to many customers, for some paper types. I think that one of those would be within the 30,000 Euro budget? BTW, I am sure that Canon/KM/Ricoh have perfectly acceptable machines in this area, but with the same limitations of course.

Your issues will be:
- flat sheets
- available sheet sizes & image areas on those
- coated and recycled paper handling

Of course, you will find other issues as well, but those are the well known issues for "competent" light production machines.

If you find a NEW book printing b&w machine for less than 100,000 Euros that produces 100% commercially acceptable results, let me know - I need another one!

 

[lmlr]

I don't think there is any machine that costs less than about 100,000 euros that will do a 100% acceptable job for this kind of work. You can look at the cheaper Xerox machines like the 4112/4127 and they will do a job that is acceptable to many customers, for some paper types. I think that one of those would be within the 30,000 Euro budget? BTW, I am sure that Canon/KM/Ricoh have perfectly acceptable machines in this area, but with the same limitations of course.

Your issues will be:
- flat sheets
- available sheet sizes & image areas on those
- coated and recycled paper handling

Of course, you will find other issues as well, but those are the well known issues for "competent" light production machines.

If you find a NEW book printing b&w machine for less than 100,000 Euros that produces 100% commercially acceptable results, let me know - I need another one!

What digital printer would you recommend no matter what the price would be and why? Thanks.

 

[paulica]

What digital printer would you recommend no matter what the price would be and why? Thanks.

Take 1000 euro and budget them for a visit at drupa. It's just around the corner.

We are xerox dealers and we have stop order taking for 4112/27 therefore end of life. From a service point of view the machine if used wisely was an FSMA dream. Quite bullet proof and with a decent spectrum of media types it was good for various types of jobs.

The Dseries will replace them. For sure these will be at drupa, probably the flagship, fastest one, I can't remember the number exactly, I think the 125.

Other options include used Nuvera and Docutech series.

The Nuvera is great for printing books with both imgaes and text on various stocks. The docutech on the other hand, if you don't mind the resolution is like a tank.

Biggest problem you'll face is when Xerox pushes a continuos feed machine to a book printing company around you. Those machine print at crazy low prices. Thank god the cheapest is almoust as much as an igen, otherwise we'd all have to find other businesses.

 

[OkiTech]

Hi, you can look at Konica-Minolta 1050 series. We're office equipment dealer+Printing shop in NY. I have these machines offered as lease returns with 50-80 million clicks - pretty impressive number, I am not sure how much is new one, could be a little more that 30k euro but nowhere near 100,000. In our printshop we use Ricoh MP9000, it does not have a superb registration but it is ok. We print small and not so small runs of books and booklets. I had seen these go well over 10 million clicks. We bought our used with 800,000 on the meter for $4500 and now it is up to 2.8 million, we had spent about $700 - $800 on maintenance components, which is not bad, with good paper it would run 10 hrs a day for a few days with just an occasional jam. Ricoh MP9000 new is about $35,000 MSRP, means yo can buy it somewhere near $30K, about what, 25,000 euros.

 

[paulica]

Hi, you can look at Konica-Minolta 1050 series. We're office equipment dealer+Printing shop in NY. I have these machines offered as lease returns with 50-80 million clicks - pretty impressive number, I am not sure how much is new one, could be a little more that 30k euro but nowhere near 100,000. In our printshop we use Ricoh MP9000, it does not have a superb registration but it is ok. We print small and not so small runs of books and booklets. I had seen these go well over 10 million clicks. We bought our used with 800,000 on the meter for $4500 and now it is up to 2.8 million, we had spent about $700 - $800 on maintenance components, which is not bad, with good paper it would run 10 hrs a day for a few days with just an occasional jam. Ricoh MP9000 new is about $35,000 MSRP, means yo can buy it somewhere near $30K, about what, 25,000 euros.

what kind of stock do you generally print on ? I am always curious about under 80gsm options ? Especially for book printing.

 

[paulica]

quick word of advice:

If you're thinking of the 4112 or 127, get in touch with Xerox as soon as possible, and first ask them for a large discount since it's end of sale, and second go for the Copy Print Scan system, and add a free flow to it. Always get the Oversize high capacity feeder, avoid any finisher ( it's quite nice, but in real life ,jobs are a bit more complex ), and if you're thinking of printing large jobs at a time, tell them to throw in the staking option. Last one is costly but it's a good feature when you want to do 3000 4000 at a time.

And always, always, ask Xerox to tell you what they recommend for paper options, and go for sheets that are as large as possible. This way you cut down on click costs, and improve your productivity.

Last but not least, this isn't necesarilly a high spec office machine, this has a real production drum, therefore use the machine wisely. Probably you'll choose a maintenance contract, but to avoid service calls and a broken down machine, do not turn it on just for 10 copies. When you warm the machine try to do at least a 200 300 page run on it.

 

[OkiTech]

Paulica is right - when we set-up offices from a scratch for the customers, we'd put a heavier machine like canon IR6570 in to copy room and install something like HP LaserJet M4345MFP at the reception. This way what few copies/prints are needed they could be routed to smaller machine that quick to warm up and when larger jobs are being run continuously they run it on larger canon and while big machine tied up, quick jobs could be run on smaller on - no need to interrupt, plus should any of them break, another can serve as a back-up.

 

[design]

look at canon iR ADV 8000 series or oce 2100

 

[lfelton]

What digital printer would you recommend no matter what the price would be and why? Thanks.

As far as I know there are only 2 sheetfed toner machines used for commercial book printing. Oce 6160 (the others in this range (i.e. 6250) are the same engine, different speed restrictions) and Xerox Nuvera. Bear in mind that the Nuvera is a bit of a minefield for uninitiated as (i) you have to have specific configurations, (ii) the image area is not well suited to all available sheet sizes (if you read the CEDs you can pick this out) and (iii) the print engine slows down pretty severely on the larger sheet sizes (get the CEDs). On the flip side the Nuvera has the edge on image quality. Sheet sizes & image areas are important of course, otherwise you'll end up not being competitive with certain book sizes. If (i) you only need the sheet size & image areas offered on light production (ii) you don't need to print on coated or recycled paper (iii) your customers can live with a ripple in their books, then your choice is much, much wider.

It's hard sifting the noise from the signal on this forum isn't it?