Ikon or Xerox..looking for a printer

[StrikTenn913]

Interesting feedback - thanks. Well, good luck!

 

[Jeff Payne]

I would get some quotes from Canon Business Solutions.

 

[mikeatlbc]

I would say that too if I worked for Canon.

 

[sweatyclimber]

LOL! If that's the case then I guess I should be saying get quotes from a Global Imaging Dealer. (which of course I do recomend )

To answer some of the questions. The C650 (KM name of it) is not the same as the C6501 you are reading about here... its there high end office color machine that can also work ok in some smaller shops.

With the embeded fiery you loose a LOT of processing power but in many cases that is still ok. If you'll do any VDP or processing intensive jobs, go big.

The reason for there interest in you going by that date is simply to close the sale for month end. It is possible that Ricoh like many in the industry have a fiscal year ending mar 31. If that's the case, there is more drive for them to close it now. I would ask, if so your sale could be the difference between presidents club and not for the rep and if so, that's highy "motivational" for them and thus a good negotiation position for you.

Based on your prior equipment, the DC252/260 probibly would be a great fit for price/ quality. Sales people sometimes like to sell "big". I am not an advocate of that. I have been told too many times by good profitable printers that "its a tool". Sometimes sales reps get printers too focused on the "cool toy" and not the bottom line. Bottom line for price/ quality the 252 is likely a good fit with the embeded rip if your files are small. Otherwise get the external rip. If you really need and can make money with the extra finishing or 90% of your jobs are on "cardboard" then the 6500 would be an exceptional bang for the buck. You'll have to decide if its worth the extra money.

On the Splash server for the DC252, if you run a MAC environment, there should be no question on getting it. It's pricy like mac's but, it makes it possible for the DC to pass offset press color test charts. Basicly, it pushes the engine to its limits and delivers excellet color quality.

Lastly, check your associations, you may get pricing discounts, if not... Hem & haw till the very last part of the month which will help you get the rep nervious and likely throw in "incentives" to close now. Get bids from those who represent the two machines you've narrowed down to. From KM likely 5 people in town rep it and can sell it to you, w/ xerox you may have an agent, direct, global imaging. YOu'll get the best price/ service if you bring quality competition in to bid. If

 

[VTsignguy]

LOL! If that's the case then I guess I should be saying get quotes from a Global Imaging Dealer. (which of course I do recomend )

To answer some of the questions. The C650 (KM name of it) is not the same as the C6501 you are reading about here... its there high end office color machine that can also work ok in some smaller shops.

With the embeded fiery you loose a LOT of processing power but in many cases that is still ok. If you'll do any VDP or processing intensive jobs, go big.

The reason for there interest in you going by that date is simply to close the sale for month end. It is possible that Ricoh like many in the industry have a fiscal year ending mar 31. If that's the case, there is more drive for them to close it now. I would ask, if so your sale could be the difference between presidents club and not for the rep and if so, that's highy "motivational" for them and thus a good negotiation position for you.

Based on your prior equipment, the DC252/260 probibly would be a great fit for price/ quality. Sales people sometimes like to sell "big". I am not an advocate of that. I have been told too many times by good profitable printers that "its a tool". Sometimes sales reps get printers too focused on the "cool toy" and not the bottom line. Bottom line for price/ quality the 252 is likely a good fit with the embeded rip if your files are small. Otherwise get the external rip. If you really need and can make money with the extra finishing or 90% of your jobs are on "cardboard" then the 6500 would be an exceptional bang for the buck. You'll have to decide if its worth the extra money.

On the Splash server for the DC252, if you run a MAC environment, there should be no question on getting it. It's pricy like mac's but, it makes it possible for the DC to pass offset press color test charts. Basicly, it pushes the engine to its limits and delivers excellet color quality.

Lastly, check your associations, you may get pricing discounts, if not... Hem & haw till the very last part of the month which will help you get the rep nervious and likely throw in "incentives" to close now. Get bids from those who represent the two machines you've narrowed down to. From KM likely 5 people in town rep it and can sell it to you, w/ xerox you may have an agent, direct, global imaging. YOu'll get the best price/ service if you bring quality competition in to bid. If

awesome post!!!! Thanks...too long of a day and my pizza is burning...but i will respond in detail tomorow

cliffnotes....i meet with xerox tomorow, and i would be very happy with the 252/splash combo.

 

[smatros]

Define heavier stocks. I just ran 5000 12x18 80# cover stock Friday on a c6501 without a jam.

sure, but it was fed from manual tray. the biggest limitation I see is that you can not run 13x19" paper from any tray but the manual feeder, or am I misinformed?

 

[VTsignguy]

awesome post!!!! Thanks...too long of a day and my pizza is burning...but i will respond in detail tomorow

cliffnotes....i meet with xerox tomorow, and i would be very happy with the 252/splash combo.

Meeting went very well with xerox....man these people know there stuff...much better presentation than iKon gave. I think i will end up with the 242 with the internal rip...he gave me a million reasons why i did not need the splash. Now its just a matter of him giving me the best price and me saying yes.

I may get flamed here for saying this or actually agreeing with the xerox sales pitch, but xerox is saying that the the 242 and the 700 image exactly the same...the only difference is the ability for the 700 to fold stock heavier than 65lb cover....that and speed of printing.

 

[sweatyclimber]

Meeting went very well with xerox....man these people know there stuff...much better presentation than iKon gave. I think i will end up with the 242 with the internal rip...he gave me a million reasons why i did not need the splash. Now its just a matter of him giving me the best price and me saying yes.

I may get flamed here for saying this or actually agreeing with the xerox sales pitch, but xerox is saying that the the 242 and the 700 image exactly the same...the only difference is the ability for the 700 to fold stock heavier than 65lb cover....that and speed of printing.

I'd suggest that the 700 is better quality from running them side by side. In our showroom we have a KMC6500, Xerox 700, Xerox 252 & Xerox 5000AP so we get to do lots of testing and benchmarking. Between the 252 & 700 my eye say's 700 is better, but really... 252 is still great & with color its individual prefrence. I'm surprised they didn't think you needed splash... they might be "scared" of the price because it is supstantially higher then the busled Fiery.

To protect your bottom line and service... I really would suggest you bid Xerox against Global Imaging Systems unless for some reason Global's local dealer can't bid. I can't nessisarily recommend your local GIS company, but I can tell you that the dealer network are typically the best performers in there marketplace. Like anyone else, check them out first, but I wouldn't count them out as it could provide you substantially lower pricing and better service... Like anything... It could be that they can't handle your environment are a bad fit. But it doesn't hurt to ask. Since they won't be marketed as "Global Imaging" you'll have to go to the website to find the local branded name.

 

[VTsignguy]

I'd suggest that the 700 is better quality from running them side by side. In our showroom we have a KMC6500, Xerox 700, Xerox 252 & Xerox 5000AP so we get to do lots of testing and benchmarking. Between the 252 & 700 my eye say's 700 is better, but really... 252 is still great & with color its individual prefrence. I'm surprised they didn't think you needed splash... they might be "scared" of the price because it is supstantially higher then the busled Fiery.

To protect your bottom line and service... I really would suggest you bid Xerox against Global Imaging Systems unless for some reason Global's local dealer can't bid. I can't nessisarily recommend your local GIS company, but I can tell you that the dealer network are typically the best performers in there marketplace. Like anyone else, check them out first, but I wouldn't count them out as it could provide you substantially lower pricing and better service... Like anything... It could be that they can't handle your environment are a bad fit. But it doesn't hurt to ask. Since they won't be marketed as "Global Imaging" you'll have to go to the website to find the local branded name.

regarding splash...they suggested that we put the machine in and see how the embedded rip and comand workstation work for us, and then decide if we want to add splash for any reason that the CW was not doing all we needed. There was no finacial reason to buy splash with the unit, if we choose to upgrade to splash 6 days later or 6 months later or at any point they would just add it into our lease.

FWIW and in case i did not make it clear...the Xerox deal is directly thu xerox....so i am not sure how global comes into play or would be a better deal for us since xerox bought global right? But i will check into it, we are in a very small market in vermont, and the reason xerox is down here is because besides this 242 that i want, the company also has 5 large B&W machines. I am not a print for pay...the company i work for owns this print shop, and i produce prints for them.

 

[sweatyclimber]

regarding splash...they suggested that we put the machine in and see how the embedded rip and comand workstation work for us, and then decide if we want to add splash for any reason that the CW was not doing all we needed. There was no finacial reason to buy splash with the unit, if we choose to upgrade to splash 6 days later or 6 months later or at any point they would just add it into our lease.

FWIW and in case i did not make it clear...the Xerox deal is directly thu xerox....so i am not sure how global comes into play or would be a better deal for us since xerox bought global right? But i will check into it, we are in a very small market in vermont, and the reason xerox is down here is because besides this 242 that i want, the company also has 5 large B&W machines. I am not a print for pay...the company i work for owns this print shop, and i produce prints for them.

That makes sense about the splash and is a good way to pursue it. I'm sure they will but I would make sure to include the extra memory on you Fiery.

Just to clarify, Xerox direct is great and I'm not stipulating that there not. I am confident they would do a good job for you. I would simiply assert that Global dealers do it better. Why? Xerox direct simply could not do small and medium business well. Global has always only focused on the middle market. Some examples are in responsiveness. With my company (and Vermont's may be different) we have administrators assigned to each account. There is no 800# to call, you call a person you know and one who knows you. This way they can be more helpful and anticipate your needs. We have warehouses at every single branch in case your in an emergancy and need a part, toner or a loaner. We are set up to respond. I could take an order or an "emergancy call in need of a loaner" and have a machine onsite in 3 hours and sometimes less. I realize that its a small example, but its something bigger company's simply don't do. The gist is the big directs are all about "cost efficiencies" and a singular homoginozed process to follow; at Global, it's all about serving the customers needs there way. We overcome the cost efficiencies through better productivity per employee. I could go on and on but I hopefully that gives you an idea. To further the notion without going on too much, KMBS is restructuring to "KMI"... there new model of coverage is one that is designed to replicate Global Imaging's structure. Local control, local decision making with (this is where they differ) everyone responsible for P&L (they stop P&L responsibility at the "market VP"),

To answer your question, which is likely one many have about Global Imaging. GIS is a subsidiary of Xerox, it operates independantly under its own cost center. The structure of Global has remained unchanged, meaning all of the independant dealers Global own's also operate independantly. Nothing has changed other then we now have an exceptional product line to offer with a great company to support us. Our "go to market" strategy which is different between each GIS dealership is different then Xerox Directs. That being the case, the pricing we give or the program we'll offer it under could be more benefitial to you. Very likely it will not be the same as what you see from Xerox Direct. It is also possible that that specific dealers program will be worse or more expensive, but that is unlikely.

I did look up your dealer for that area. There name is Kelly Office Systems. I literally know nothing about them. So I would be leary to open handedly recommend them to you. What I will say is that if they passed the test to be purchased by GIS which is extreemly rigorous, then that's a good start. Since I can't tell you much about them here's what I would suggest to ask or find out to make sure they could take good care of you.

1. How many total service training hours do they have with Xerox (My company= 9 man years since aquisition)... This would give you an idea of overall understanding and how focused they are on Xerox verse KM as I noticed that they sell both.

2. How many DC2xx have they placed. (Were well into 200-ish since aquisition but we were also one of KM's largest Production Print dealers in the US & continue to sell KM's and Sharp's production gear)

3. Are they allowed to sell the DC5000 and have the chosen to or not. (This will help to rate Xerox's confidence in them if they've been "enabled" to sell the flagship, it will also tell you there confidence in production color gear -or at least the market there- if they chose not to take it)

4. What type of Network support or analysts do they have? How many complex solution sales and or Production Print sales with the extra software packages have they placed. (If they are doing well here and answered well to the other questions, you will likely have a very knowlageable dealer)

5... The rest... Of course like anyone... Check out all the normal stuff, the above checklist is simply a "fast start" assessment to guage where they are in there ability to support you.

 

[X33]

who do you think can give you a better deal (cost + service + support)? the manufacturer (Xerox), or the middle man (Global Imaging Systems)?

 

[X33]

I may get flamed here for saying this or actually agreeing with the xerox sales pitch, but xerox is saying that the the 242 and the 700 image exactly the same...the only difference is the ability for the 700 to fold stock heavier than 65lb cover....that and speed of printing.

some differences between the DC242 vs X700 :

- speed
- quality : is not better, is not worse, it is different. different toner, fuser temperature. you have to see it and make your own decision on this one
- duplex : the X700 can duplex up to 80lb cover (vs 65lb cover for the DC242), and can duplex glossy/coated media (DC242 only plain)
- paper feeders : oversized high capacity feeders (2 vs 1) and front trays have different capacity and media handling
- registration : up to 1mm front to back vs 3mm front to back
- finisher options : booklets up to 60 pages on the DC242, vs booklets up to 100 pages on the X700
- the X700 has alignment, decurling, skewing tools in the user interface. you can create paper profiles

 

[sweatyclimber]

who do you think can give you a better deal (cost + service + support)? the manufacturer (Xerox), or the middle man (Global Imaging Systems)?

Realisticly that's entirely dependant on the site. Simply being direct does not = better service. I worked for a direct for 10 years. I have seen many many boneheads at high and street level within direct organizations same as w/in dealers.

For cost ... I have seen EVERY single time that Global is less.
Serivice.... This comes down to the site, but as a rule of thumb, Global is more flexable in there ability to service, and has 150% support from Xerox so my vote (an obviously biased one) is to Global.
Support... No question GIS dealers (not mom & pop dealers) give better support... See the difference is, they make nothing, there ONLY differentiator is the support. Global won the SMB business market (aka achieved double digets growth every year vs markets 9%) because of the service and support we can provide. For instance on my small clients... I can at no charge provide them an email server. My competition doesn't do that small or large. I do it because it helps them scan efficiently. When supporting equipment I don't "stop at the wall" like the policy of so many directs. I have an enterprise IT team that supports company's world wide and is VM Ware's & Cisco's larges reseller. So I will support the problem all the way through... There many other examples.

The main point however is focus. A direct by there nature sell's one line and is machine/ brand focused. A GIS dealer sells more then one brand and has the loyalty focused on the customer not the equipment. Both models have there upside, but lets not try to pursade the market that one way is better then the other just because.... It's simply not true.

 

[vwrome]

I guess this post should have been Xerox or GIS. LOL

 

[sweatyclimber]

I guess this post should have been Xerox or GIS. LOL

Or Dealers verse directs heh.... But point taken, I inadvertantly swiped the thread and will make sure to stay as on topic as possible.

 

[X33]

Realisticly that's entirely dependant on the site. Simply being direct does not = better service.

I agree with this.

 

[VTsignguy]

Ikon is jumping int othe lead here...

demo unit, a few hundred copies. CPP660 witha Pro80 rip, large feed drawer and saddle stitch finisher. Price is over $400 per month below cost of new machine on a 48 month leae, and they will throw in 6 month free copies if i agree to 15k copies per month in the lease. This last part has me a little worried...but i need to find out more details about the offer.

I do not think Xerox has anything that they can offer me that will be as nice a machine, for less money.

Talk me out of it if you think this is a mistake...i am ready to commit tomorrow.

 

[sweatyclimber]

Likely they are sitting on inventory they do not want. I think everyone on the forum know's they've been essentially mandated to switch entirly over to Ricoh sales. In the mean time they still have ton's of gear in the warehouse. On top of that at least in my market they are getting crushed by both the bad timing of the merger, the economy and the fact that banks are not lending. That may translate to a great deal for you... I wouldn't doubt that Xerox could come back with something for you and its to your benefit to play them back and forth enough to squeek out the best deal for you. On "demo" units which is a loosely defined defenition in our industry, Ikon likely has LOTS of play... Usually its already been costed down, sometimes the comp is higher... I bet they have room to go. The fact that that is the machine they "lead" with (meaning a demo) would tell me its there strategy to beat the X700 (price) so if that truely is... get all the "strategy" you can ... it boils down to there numbers are hurting huge on top of the fact there facing massive inventory pressures to move "outdated" equipment.... work it and you'll win big in a time when all the price conssession you can get will help you win.

 

[VTsignguy]

I have already asked IKON for another $100 off per month,,,,,they have quoted it 2 ways to me. The demo unit does not have the large feed box or the cover inserter on it. Both items i want. So they added $100 a month on top of the demo price to bring those 2 items into the deal. I am asking that they they throw them in for free.

I also am hoping you are right that Xerox comes back with its own seeet deal..i am certainly not above the fray here.....i will be happpy to let them both duke it out

Xerox i believe has a 260 demo unit they are trying to work a deal on.

 

[sweatyclimber]

Also worth noting. I spoke to the pressure they (Ikon) were under to move gear. Ricoh announced recently (I heard today) that the "aquisition is going well" and by that they mean that in January Ikon placed 90% Ricoh. Traditionally Ikon was 60% Canon, 30% Ricoh, 10% the rest. That being the case, as you negotiate, I would require from them a "recourse" if service drop's below expectations. Clearly they are being told they must sell Ricoh and to "dump" the other inventory. But that kind of approach could bear some trouble for you. Make sure you are protected from it through addendums that state a course of action should your experiance change from what was anticipated. Just to give you a comparison in 2.5yr's the global company's are still 50/50 because 1 size does not fit all. To show an increase of 300% in such a short time span is a clear "forced march". That means its being done for Ricoh's benefit not yours.