Imposition "Standard" requirements for die-lines in pdf files?

[M. R. Horton]

Is there a "standard" or "standards" for including die-lines in pdf files that can be accepted into "off the shelf" imposition software or does each imposition package have their own requirements?
For example - Are they recognized by most/all of the "off the shelf" imposition software as a device-N separation in the pdf file?

- "The great thing about standards is that there are so many of them."

 

[WiseGuy]

Customers we have that use die lines in their PDF files use a spot color for the die lines. This way they can be segmented out to their own separation and given to the die cutter. This would work in any imposition package out there.

Go into more detail about your workflow?

Michael Reiher
Dynagram

 

[M. R. Horton]

I recently had a request to produce imposable pdf files with crop, trim, and bleed boxes, as well as dielines in a certain pantone color. While this is the only time, so far, that I have had a request like this, I wanted to get some feedback on imposition standards for handling the die-lines, so that if different from the recent request, I could code those into our database to PostScript generation software. Internally our imposition software is also a database to PostScript set of applications, where bleed and trim paths are used instead of boxes and the die-lines are context controlled automatically.

Including the die-lines as a separate spot color seems like a reasonable standard.

 

[mattbeals]

As long as the die line is in a spot color like "DIELINE" AND is set to overprint you should be good having a composite PDF. The other way of handling die lines is to put the die line on a separate layer in the PDF so it can be turned OFF or on as needed.

 

[arkay_desai]

You can turn off die color if it is SPOT color and marked with Die. Make sure it is over printed.

 

[chevalier]

The color must be designated as a spot and should be set to overprint. The overprint isn't a serious issue unless the files are being provided completely flattened or rasterized as most digital prepress workflows can override the overprint settings. Generally a composite file is preferred to verify everything fits and bleeds properly.

 

[michaelejahn]

DIELINE - Spot color, set to overprint

DIELINE - Spot color, set to overprint

yes, that is what most people do.

When you gang or paginate multiple jobs from different designers into a single pdf file to RIP, this solves sveral problems downstream !

Be sure to call the color DIELINE - and make sure that spot color is set to OVERPRINT. This way, it never effects trapping nor does it knock out any bleed object that might intersect it

 

[M. R. Horton]

Thank you all for your responses to my request!

I sense a definite consensus on how to proceed ;-), however, the request for the imposable pdf files was so they could be sent to Europe for production there.
The request for the die-lines was - colourname of the cutting shape is always: “PANTONE 3405 CV”.
They did not indicate what imposition software they were using... might there be a different standard in Europe or are you guys too international to have missed that?

Anyway, the main thing is that it needs to be done as a spot color and the programming I did, already allowed for any spot color (standard or in-house custom) to be chosen for die-lines when the job is generated, or the die-lines can be left off altogether. Up until now, I had never needed to render individual pdfs in anything but process colors, only my PostScript drivers for platesetting rendered device-N separations (arbitrary spot colors).

 

[chevalier]

Using Pantone 3405 is just a strange custom preference for that shop is my best guess. I wonder how they would react if they had a job that utilized this ink. We have customers that use a pantone ink for the die all the time. It really isn't much of a hassle to remap to a different color. We have a customer that always uses Pantone 800 series of neon colors for die.

But hey, these customers are the ones who keep us prepress people employed!

 

[lesliegroenewald]

I agree with all the above. Only one thing. I cannot understand why everyone calls a DIE TRACE a die line. Help me here. A dieline is an ammonia proof of a patched up flat. The dieline proof was made on a yelo ammonia sensitive paper. Before plot proofs this was one of the ways to check your impo and various othe elements. I think with the computerisation of the industry the word dieline stuck. However technically it is wrong.

 

[mattbeals]

Leslie, you mean a blue-line? Yellow photosensitive paper that turned blue when exposed to UV light? We also had black lines. But all the bindery people i have ever worked with called the shape of the die the "die line". Don't know why, "just is". I've never hear anyone in my travels call it a "die trace".

 

[M. R. Horton]

Leslie,

Not everyone has the same shared experience.

For myself, it is not unusual to run into words or phrases related to the printing industry that I'm not familiar with due to the printing niche I'm involved in. My father studied horticulture and animal husbandry on the "GI Bill" after he got out of "WWII" and worked in both those fields until the year I was born, when he got into producing labels for the nursery and greenhouse industries. He was not formally trained in printing and the training he did get was by professionals that probably weren't formally trained either.

We rarely print on paper and only a very small portion of what we produce has four straight sides. In years past I designed and drew the steel rule dies electronically and sent them to diemakers. There is alot of printing technology that we didn't get involved with because of the nature of our product, and probably much terminology was missed or misapplied or even created within the confines of our facilities, which admittedly could mean something different or mean nothing at all to an outsider. But it would be misleading to leave you with the impression that we don't embrace technology or that we are trailing behind the industry in every area, and I hope that isn't the case. We are just in a niche market with niche needs and our exposure to what everyone else knows is limited, unfortunately.

So, thanks for sharing your insight on the terms "die trace" and "dieline" as that broadens my experience. However, in the interest of understandable communication with almost anyone, I will probably continue to use the term "dieline", not to be stubborn, but to be readily understood by just about everyone.

 

[lesliegroenewald]

Dear M. R. Horton: You have hit the jackpot with your comment. In 1969 when I started as an apprentice Hotmetal Compositor the term die trace was used by all the journeymen in our company. Therefore I grew up with this term. Everybody today talks about die line and I have adapted to the term.

 

[michaelejahn]

Die line vs blue line

Die line vs blue line

I agree with all the above. Only one thing. I cannot understand why everyone calls a DIE TRACE a die line. Help me here. A dieline is an ammonia proof of a patched up flat. The dieline proof was made on a yelo ammonia sensitive paper. Before plot proofs this was one of the ways to check your impo and various othe elements. I think with the computerisation of the industry the word dieline stuck. However technically it is wrong.

I cant agree with your suggestion or argument. I have made Bluelines - which were made from negatives, using a blueline machine;

Blueline - What is a Blueline in Desktop Publishing

but these were never called "die lines" - a die line is the line where a die will strike it.

Dieline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[lesliegroenewald]

I was trained as a hotmetal compositor in South Africa in 1969. At that stage we did not even have any form of ammonia proofs available. Only later OCE and Xerox introduced the ammonia proof. The OCE paper had a yelo coating and the Xerox had a blue coating. Going back to 1969. When we had to produce a "Dieline" and I have made peace with the term, we had to draw the actual outlines of the cut line on TRACING PAPER and that was why we called it a DIE TRACE. The tracing paper is more stable than other paper and could be manhandled. It served as a guide in your galley when you were comping the actual job. You could also place the trace on top of your form to see if all your elements are in the correct position. The diemaker also mounted the trace on the wood and could then cut with his jig saw following the trace. It seems to me that the term "dietrace" was shop specific

 

[michaelejahn]

words die, then they are reborn I suppose

words die, then they are reborn I suppose

I was trained as a hotmetal compositor in South Africa in 1969. --snip--The diemaker also mounted the trace on the wood and could then cut with his jig saw following the trace. It seems to me that the term "dietrace" was shop specific

That is a wonderful peice of history - indeed - words change meaning over the years - in fact, the word awful actually was from the root awesome and was a positive word at one time.

I guess I was simply pointing out that most people think "die cutting" when it comes to 'die line' these days.

 

[CHM]

To ad some more info to this discussion I can mention that the GWG (GWG | Home | Free tools for Print & Publishing) is working on a way to standardize this and more.
Problem is that it will be some time before the industry will implement this.
So for the time being the best you can do is to use a spot color with a specific name, like mentioned by most of the people here. Also you better put it on a separate layer, and make shure nothing els is on that layer. And never use official print colors, like the example that was mentioned.