We have been experiencing a strange RIP problem since CS3. When we create pdf files for imposition to send to our RIP, everything will look fine. However, when it goes "completely" through the RIP and creates the epson print out for proof, these strange filled in balls or circles will appear randomly throughout the document. These do NOT show up in the pdf file itself, only upon going through the RIP. I have so far figured out that this occurs from an In-Design file when using a one font, say univers bold, then space or tab using a different font like new baskerville which will be the next font used within the paragraph (like a headline using the bold, then the text using the plain version of a completely different font). The mystery "balls" will show up where the spaces or tab is. If I change the spaces or tabs to the first font (univers bold) and then re-create the pdf file, the problem disappears. This is a random occurrence however and will not even show up in every instance where the fonts have been applied so it truely is a mystery. Our RIP software is Xenith/Xitron and this has occurred since Leopard. We are currently using Snow Leopard and the issue is still happening.
In-Design Mystery Balls
- Thread starter breblin
- Start date
rich apollo
Well-known member
How are you getting the files to the RIP?
When InDesign generates a PDF file, it will leave out blank characters like what you describe. For example, if Times shows up in a document only as a space or as a return, the font will not be embedded (nor subset) in the resulting PDF, and the space or return will not appear either.
I'm only guessing, but to me it seems that your RIP does not like that absence.
When InDesign generates a PDF file, it will leave out blank characters like what you describe. For example, if Times shows up in a document only as a space or as a return, the font will not be embedded (nor subset) in the resulting PDF, and the space or return will not appear either.
I'm only guessing, but to me it seems that your RIP does not like that absence.
I've done a google search and it appears the Xitron RIPs have had some issues with this particular item in the past. They released an updater to fix this issue a couple of years ago.
What version of the RIP are you using?
here's a link to an article from 2006:
New RIP For Mac OS Features Font Emulation: News from Xitron
What version of the RIP are you using?
here's a link to an article from 2006:
New RIP For Mac OS Features Font Emulation: News from Xitron
We are running the latest version they have (Xitron 6.1.3) without having to upgrade the entire system which would cost $25,000-30,000 (can't happen right now due to budgets) so we are pretty much stuck with this version. I find it interesting that this only happens with In-Design generated pdf files, it never happens with Quark files.
work arounds
work arounds
I have discovered 2 work-arounds for this issue. Since I use QuarkXpress for my imposition software, I currently will export these press files to the RIP as pdfs. However, I tried exporting a file that I know has this particular problem as eps instead, and the mystery balls did not appear. So I thought I had the problem solved, but there is a downside, you can only export one page at a time from QuarkXpress as eps to the RIP. Not a good solution for large books that have many pages. So back to the drawing board. I then went back to the In-Design file (again one that gave us a problem) and exported the pages from In-Design as eps instead of pdf. Why, you ask, didn't I try this originally? I actually did, but for some reason when I first tried this solution (probably around CS2) I couldn't get In-Design to properly export the pages with our GRACOL color management settings so I had to abandon this. Not sure what was going on at that time, but something was not working. Our files definitely came out differently on press. (We actually threw a printed job back on the press with the eps files instead to see if it would come out different, and it did.) However, when I tried to export In-Design files again just recently, the color management did seem to take so now we are currently exporting ALL In-Design documents as eps, not pdf and are importing the eps files instead into quark and exporting from Quark as pdf to the RIP which will let us send the entire document in one file to the RIP and we are going to see how it goes!
work arounds
I have discovered 2 work-arounds for this issue. Since I use QuarkXpress for my imposition software, I currently will export these press files to the RIP as pdfs. However, I tried exporting a file that I know has this particular problem as eps instead, and the mystery balls did not appear. So I thought I had the problem solved, but there is a downside, you can only export one page at a time from QuarkXpress as eps to the RIP. Not a good solution for large books that have many pages. So back to the drawing board. I then went back to the In-Design file (again one that gave us a problem) and exported the pages from In-Design as eps instead of pdf. Why, you ask, didn't I try this originally? I actually did, but for some reason when I first tried this solution (probably around CS2) I couldn't get In-Design to properly export the pages with our GRACOL color management settings so I had to abandon this. Not sure what was going on at that time, but something was not working. Our files definitely came out differently on press. (We actually threw a printed job back on the press with the eps files instead to see if it would come out different, and it did.) However, when I tried to export In-Design files again just recently, the color management did seem to take so now we are currently exporting ALL In-Design documents as eps, not pdf and are importing the eps files instead into quark and exporting from Quark as pdf to the RIP which will let us send the entire document in one file to the RIP and we are going to see how it goes!
Quark
Quark
Quark is, and always has been, my software program of choice. I don't "use" In-Design when I create artwork, I only work with it on a prepress basis. I do know my way around it quite well however, and I have on occasion created artwork for other users who only use the program, but I am a born and raised Quark user, love it, and am VERY familiar with the program. So I created numerous templates in Quark for our imposition, it was actually quite easy and now I rarely get a file that I don't have a template for. I won't get into the whole "Quark vs In-Design" debate, but I will say that just from a prepress position (by the way, I am the only prepress person here for 4 different presses), each has it's good points and bad points so since I'm familiar and comfortable with Quark, that's the program I use. And it isn't a lot of work, believe me.
Quark
Quark is, and always has been, my software program of choice. I don't "use" In-Design when I create artwork, I only work with it on a prepress basis. I do know my way around it quite well however, and I have on occasion created artwork for other users who only use the program, but I am a born and raised Quark user, love it, and am VERY familiar with the program. So I created numerous templates in Quark for our imposition, it was actually quite easy and now I rarely get a file that I don't have a template for. I won't get into the whole "Quark vs In-Design" debate, but I will say that just from a prepress position (by the way, I am the only prepress person here for 4 different presses), each has it's good points and bad points so since I'm familiar and comfortable with Quark, that's the program I use. And it isn't a lot of work, believe me.
As is most often the case, it had to do with money. The imposition software that went with the Xitron software was $12,000 more at the time so we decided against it. We just didn't have the money to spend. For me, Quark isn't any worse or better than the problems we run into with In-Design files too. Good example is this particular problem. We never have this issue with Quark generated pdf files, go figure. In-Design has always been a pain as far as fonts go. I would have to say that probably 90% of the time when we have a prepress issue, it's because of fonts in In-Design.
Breblin, we also use the xitron/xenith workflow and have not switched over to sierra. We do all of our imposition in indesign. We also take any native application files that come in and convert them to pdf before imposing and ripping. I can not say I have seen the mystery balls you are speaking of, but I have seen check box type things appear on occation.
When we first got xenith we all were die hard quark lovers, cringed every time an indesign file came in, but as InDesign became more popular we were finding that pdf files that were made from indesign, and imposed in quark really started causing problems when going threw Xenith. So we gradually started imposing based on the program that created the pdfs. We eventually worked our way to using ONLY indesign for imposition and we have very good luck with it.
Many times what we will do is take our native file, and "print" it to xenith then grab the pdf that the primer makes, to use in our imposed press layout.
Good luck to another xenith user!
When we first got xenith we all were die hard quark lovers, cringed every time an indesign file came in, but as InDesign became more popular we were finding that pdf files that were made from indesign, and imposed in quark really started causing problems when going threw Xenith. So we gradually started imposing based on the program that created the pdfs. We eventually worked our way to using ONLY indesign for imposition and we have very good luck with it.
Many times what we will do is take our native file, and "print" it to xenith then grab the pdf that the primer makes, to use in our imposed press layout.
Good luck to another xenith user!
Yes, that thought (switch everything to In-Design) had also crossed my mind but I probably already have 200 templates alone created in Quark so I think I'm going to see how exporting to postscript from In-Design works out. I think the whole problem with Quark exporting to pdf is that it uses a different driver than the adobe pdf driver which has always been a problem with quark but has gotten better over the years. Still needs work though, that's for sure. In-Design has always had problems with fonts over the years so as stated earlier, each program has it's good points, and bad points. For me it's a wash right now so I don't see any reason to switch. All of our documents (over 3,000) are in Quark, plus a portion of documents that we get from other users are also in Quark so I'm leaning towards getting a workable solution for Quark instead. Hope I have it!
You are right about Quark using a different pdf engine. If exporting postscript doesnt work, try printing your original native file to xenith. Our Primer is set to export a PDF to a folder, and we pull that pdf and place it in either quark or indesign for imposition. It is the only way we make pdfs out of Quark files.
One of the guys that used to work here, was close to retirement and also had tons of templates built in quark. He had no interest in learning ID, nor rebuilding all his templates. Until one day he just had one too many jobs he had to re-do because of logos disappearing or wacky font things. He spent the next year slowly rebuilding templates...then RETIRED!
Quark vs ID, totally a personal preference. Whatever works for you!
One of the guys that used to work here, was close to retirement and also had tons of templates built in quark. He had no interest in learning ID, nor rebuilding all his templates. Until one day he just had one too many jobs he had to re-do because of logos disappearing or wacky font things. He spent the next year slowly rebuilding templates...then RETIRED!
Quark vs ID, totally a personal preference. Whatever works for you!
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