Indigo the way to go?

[designleicester]

I work for a design and marketing agency and increasingly we're seeing clients shifting from litho print to more short run work. Predominantly the jobs are no bigger than A3/B3 so we thought we might look at options for buying our own press in the future. We realise that this is a large undertaking and not something we can simply walk into, however its time to start learning! One of our suppliers uses an HP Indigo (?) which produces really good results and I'm keen to find out a) how much they cost and b) if there are any other machines that might be worth a look? Thanks in advance!

 

[lfelton]

I work for a design and marketing agency and increasingly we're seeing clients shifting from litho print to more short run work. Predominantly the jobs are no bigger than A3/B3 so we thought we might look at options for buying our own press in the future. We realise that this is a large undertaking and not something we can simply walk into, however its time to start learning! One of our suppliers uses an HP Indigo (?) which produces really good results and I'm keen to find out a) how much they cost and b) if there are any other machines that might be worth a look? Thanks in advance!

You need to speak to HP, most of the pricing information is under NDA. In very rough terms and factoring in the majority of the costs, if you print 100,000 CMYK SRA3 sheets (one side) per month that will cost your company about 17p a sheet excluding the cost of the paper. Obviously CMYK+LCLM or CMYK+OV that will cost more. If you print 200,000 per month that reduces it very roughly down to 11p a sheet. If you fall below 100,000 then obviously your cost per sheet is drastically increased. You will know what you can sell a sheet for in the UK, but most people estimate from around 18p, rising to as much as 50p+ for novelty items such as personalised calendars. Variable data applications are totally different, with a different pricing structure (although the print is charged out at exactly the same rates of course). You need to push big numbers through an Indigo to make money out of them.

Don't forget that you will also need to make a very significant investment in finishing equipment (and people to run them).

There is nothing else on the market with as good print quality as an Indigo, so if you bring this in-house, you need to know what is "good enough" for your clients. The other "usual suspects" are: Xerox, Canon, and Konica-Minolta. If you search this forum, you'll find a lot of useful information about the different models and their relative capabilities. You'll also find a wealth of BS, so will have to figure out which is which.

Hope that helps, but your first step is to speak with HP.

 

[direxiondm]

Hp indigo quality

Hp indigo quality

I agree on cost part but its a load of bs that indigo is best IT fully depends on what you Will be Printing f.i images are so much better on a Canon imagepress 7000. Gradients are Ã* little better on indigo as well Ad solid colors resolution raster and overall image quality is way better on Ã* canon.

Current market has severall presses that all have uniqeu abbiltys make sure you find out what work youll produce and find the best press that way.

Dont just say indigo is best!!!!!!!!
Ink will drop from the paper some Times with indigo

 

[Josh]

You need to speak to HP, most of the pricing information is under NDA. In very rough terms and factoring in the majority of the costs, if you print 100,000 CMYK SRA3 sheets (one side) per month that will cost your company about 17p a sheet excluding the cost of the paper. Obviously CMYK+LCLM or CMYK+OV that will cost more. If you print 200,000 per month that reduces it very roughly down to 11p a sheet. If you fall below 100,000 then obviously your cost per sheet is drastically increased.

Just out of interest what've you included in the 17p estimate? Simply the lease and click??

It just seems quite on the high side! I know on our Xerox 5000AP it would work out under 5p...

 

[meddington]

Up front an output costs are only a part of what you should look at. the indigo is, IMO, a bit more complex to operate, and requires more hands on maintainance from the operator than some alternatives. Consider operator training, wages and potential turnover (and retraining) as well. In many cases, outsourcing still has advantages over bringing print capabilities in house for a lot of companies, beyond (or despite) price.

 

[SlaveToTheMan]

Running 2 Indigos, I can backup what meddington said: Maintenance is key to successful running on these machines. You can't have an office full of designers simply sending jobs over & when a problem occurs, call somebody. You need a certified press operator who is good at mechanical troubleshooting & diligent about quality control. Rarely a day goes by that our guy isn't performing some kind of QC to keep it in optimum shape.

That being said, when it's in top shape, it kicks major butt over anything else I've seen. Good luck with the decision!

 

[lfelton]

Just out of interest what've you included in the 17p estimate? Simply the lease and click??

It just seems quite on the high side! I know on our Xerox 5000AP it would work out under 5p...

lease (5 year)
clicks
monthly shared service charge (assuming level 2 operator)
1x operator, standard day shift

Nothing else included for.

Your mileage may vary slightly, i.e. operators command more money in London than out in the sticks.

 

[X33]

Look at these players : Xerox, HP Indigo, Kodak Nexpress for full production digital presses.

You can also look at Xerox, Canon and Konica Minolta if you want to start at a lower level of production.

Talk to the vendors, don't just look at the machines online.

 

[Craig]

Talk to the vendors, don't just look at the machines online.

I'll take that one more level and tell you to talk to the operators as well. Whatever vendor you talk to will tell you their machine is the best. Hell, a KM vendor will tell you to get 2 or 3 6501's and that will be as good as an Indigo?????? It just goes to show you that these guys can go from selling insurance to digital presses to used cars and be "experts"!

 

[leetaylor]

It just goes to show you that these guys can go from selling insurance to digital presses to used cars and be "experts"!

Very, very good point Craig!

 

[kevneto]

We are currently looking at an Indigo 7000 as we need a high production digital press.

Right now we have 2 Canon 7000vp's and are pushing them to the max. While they are decent machines, their downtime is pretty high and we have no room to grow with them.
So just adding another 2 7000's is really not feasiable because because of footprint, power requirements, and we'd probably max those out in 6-8 months. We need a beast with a duty cycle of 1-2 million a month.

My concern's with the Indigo really boil down to HP themselves. Reading on some Indigo user forums, the users love the machine and quality (HP 5000), but take issue with HP support and consumables. I am experiencing some of these issues with Xerox now with my Doc 250's, which makes me hesitant on the IGEN4. My canon support has been good and the tech's do the best job they can to take care of these glorifed laser printers.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[lfelton]

We are currently looking at an Indigo 7000 as we need a high production digital press.

Right now we have 2 Canon 7000vp's and are pushing them to the max. While they are decent machines, their downtime is pretty high and we have no room to grow with them.
So just adding another 2 7000's is really not feasiable because because of footprint, power requirements, and we'd probably max those out in 6-8 months. We need a beast with a duty cycle of 1-2 million a month.

My concern's with the Indigo really boil down to HP themselves. Reading on some Indigo user forums, the users love the machine and quality (HP 5000), but take issue with HP support and consumables. I am experiencing some of these issues with Xerox now with my Doc 250's, which makes me hesitant on the IGEN4. My canon support has been good and the tech's do the best job they can to take care of these glorifed laser printers.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I can't help you directly with that question, but if you're not already aware of indigousers.net you might want to post there. I think that's a forum completely independent of HP.

Can you share where, from your experience, the 7000VP realistically tops out at (monthly volume)? Also, if your work requires a high level of colour consistency (as ours does), how easy is it to keep consistency when doing large volumes? Sorry to answer your question with more questions!

 

[MJNC]

Indigo?

Indigo?

Hey PrintPlanet! Happy Friday.
We run an Indigo S2000 at my shop, and 2 offset presses. Here is my perspective from the prepress end...
I really agree with the statement that you need a real press person to run these correctly. Someone who’s had the HP training - if you buy an Indigo, make HP include the cost of the press class for at least 1 person in the deal. It costs about $2,500.00 per person otherwise, plus airfare and hotel - unless you’re already in the Boston area (for US). This class is absolutely essential to the correct running and sustainability of the Indigo press though, so it is not the thing to skimp on.
I have seen output from several digital presses and I believe the quality on the HP is, so far, unmatched.
I think we had a 3 year service contract with HP, and until it was over we CMYKed our hearts out. After that, however, for every separation that goes onto any sheet, HP charges a “Click-Charge”; so remember to only send the channels that are being used when you start sending jobs.
Another thing is that if you want to print a spot color job as spot (not process), HP will formulate colors to PMS spec, but it is costly. Process imitations of pms colors are outstanding on the Indigo; make sure to exhaust all of your screening options before complaining about color matching abilities.
We print strictly on plastic here; and the Indigo does that beautifully; but we must do varnishes and coatings on a separate machine.
For variable data jobs, it comes with is own software called Yours Truly Designer - which is a huge pain in the a#@ to learn; and which only allows you to hard-proof by generating click charges. You may be able to swing the HP class for YTD (another $2000.00) for your prepress person into the deal as well. I highly recommend it if you intend to use this application. Anyone who has tried will tell you, the available documentation for YTD SUCKS!
Our Indigo handles whatever we throw at it; I have never experienced a postscript error!
So best of luck in your quest for information! It is nice to hear that someone is actually generating enough money to make such a purchase cost-effective. That is good news for all of us. Have a great weekend!!
Peace to the PrintPlanet!
_mjnc

 

[edwinb]

Predominantly the jobs are no bigger than A3/B3 so we thought we might look at options for buying our own press in the future.

if you do a spread sheet of your monthly volume/size/quality you will have a matrix that will help select the machine that can best fit. f the volume can be done by cheaper-lower quality- xerox/canon/oce machines then the substantial press investment for an indigo/similar is probably not justified.
Edwin

 

[kevneto]

Thank for your replies. there's some good stuff there.

Ifelton, concerning the 7000's. They are decent machines and fairly easy to use. They are rated at 75k-300K a4 sheets a month. We run mostly 13 x 19 which comes out to monthly duty cycle of 30k-100k. In addition, if you are running card stocks, that will decrease the duty cycle and require more service calls, especially on fuser rollers.

Between our 2 7000's, if we run 160-180k, they seem to run fairly well. Once we start getting to 200k, they service calls mount and you'll be seeing service at least 3-4 times a week. These machines are basically enhanced color lasers. I would not classify them as a "digital press"

the paper handling is very good up to 300gsm. Registration is good front to back. The color consistency is so-so, but we have ours in a large wherehouse, with some enviromental enhancements. I would imagine if you had them in a room with tighter enviromental controls, your color output would be more stable. But the color will drift, especially on lighter tints.

It's an OK machine if you are jumping into the digital market and plan on doing the majority of your runs on lighter stock. it could be a good fit. If you plan to use it as a heavy production machine, you'll find it a bit tempermental. If you get one, I hope you have a good relationship with your service provider and you may think about providing them a desk at your facility as you will be seeing them quite often. ;-)

We actually call one of the machines "the Princess" and have a tiara mounted of above the touch screen as the machine can be quite "moody". When we had Canon engineers out here to fix a problem on said machine, they were not amused with the tiara on their flagship product. I told them when they solved their problems I would take it down.

And to this day, the tiara still stands.

Hope that answers some your questions.

 

[meddington]

We actually call one of the machines "the Princess" and have a tiara mounted of above the touch screen as the machine can be quite "moody".

That is both sad and hilarious!

 

[lfelton]

Thank for your replies. there's some good stuff there.

Ifelton, concerning the 7000's. They are decent machines and fairly easy to use. They are rated at 75k-300K a4 sheets a month. We run mostly 13 x 19 which comes out to monthly duty cycle of 30k-100k. In addition, if you are running card stocks, that will decrease the duty cycle and require more service calls, especially on fuser rollers.

Between our 2 7000's, if we run 160-180k, they seem to run fairly well. Once we start getting to 200k, they service calls mount and you'll be seeing service at least 3-4 times a week. These machines are basically enhanced color lasers. I would not classify them as a "digital press"

the paper handling is very good up to 300gsm. Registration is good front to back. The color consistency is so-so, but we have ours in a large wherehouse, with some enviromental enhancements. I would imagine if you had them in a room with tighter enviromental controls, your color output would be more stable. But the color will drift, especially on lighter tints.

It's an OK machine if you are jumping into the digital market and plan on doing the majority of your runs on lighter stock. it could be a good fit. If you plan to use it as a heavy production machine, you'll find it a bit tempermental. If you get one, I hope you have a good relationship with your service provider and you may think about providing them a desk at your facility as you will be seeing them quite often. ;-)

We actually call one of the machines "the Princess" and have a tiara mounted of above the touch screen as the machine can be quite "moody". When we had Canon engineers out here to fix a problem on said machine, they were not amused with the tiara on their flagship product. I told them when they solved their problems I would take it down.

And to this day, the tiara still stands.

Hope that answers some your questions.

Blimey, that's valuable information, sincere thanks.

As we run well over 100K SRA3 a month on just ONE of our 6501s, I guess the 7000VP isn't the upgrade we're looking for!

 

[cmhdigital]

Look at all options

Look at all options

We are currently looking at an Indigo 7000 as we need a high production digital press.

Right now we have 2 Canon 7000vp's and are pushing them to the max. While they are decent machines, their downtime is pretty high and we have no room to grow with them.
So just adding another 2 7000's is really not feasiable because because of footprint, power requirements, and we'd probably max those out in 6-8 months. We need a beast with a duty cycle of 1-2 million a month.

My concern's with the Indigo really boil down to HP themselves. Reading on some Indigo user forums, the users love the machine and quality (HP 5000), but take issue with HP support and consumables. I am experiencing some of these issues with Xerox now with my Doc 250's, which makes me hesitant on the IGEN4. My canon support has been good and the tech's do the best job they can to take care of these glorifed laser printers.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I'd not restrict myself to the Indigo when looking around. There are other options out there. If you don't like the maintenance and downtime on the C7000s, then you might not like the downtime on the Indigo. It can produce nice prints, but you really have to have a skilled operator -- and the amount of time chaning blankets and PIPs is significant. The other production devices out there are Xerox iGen and Kodak NexPress. The iGen is OK, but color consistency has always plagued it. The NexPress of the past had not been able to generate the flat fields the Indigo has, but they've added some new technologies to fix that. I'd seriously look at the NexPress. There is no press that has the same productivity, and the quality is finally where the Indigo is.

You should judge for yourself -- and send some samples to the 3 of them to decide for yourself. Have some conversations. Decide what is important to you, and make an informed choice.

This forum has many good opinions on it. There are many bad opinions too. In a former life, I had experience with software from various competing vendors, and users at the company I worked for doing the evaluation of the software were very biased. They were biased to whatever software they used first. (Think Macintosh versus PC.) I think the same is true for these digital presses -- you will get operators who may be biased toward the press they are currently using. Sorry if I offend you by making that statement. That is not my intent.

Also, if you get quotes from all three -- you have a much better chance of getting a better price!!

Good Luck with your decision.