Ineptitude

[inkinveins]

Isn't it very aggravating when one tries to cover up one's lack of competence by blaming the equipment. I see this over and over again. It even takes a certain amount of skill to wipe one's ass, but I'm sure these people would blame their lack of hygeine on the toilet paper. I've recently experienced this one instance, where a sheetfed offset operator got in the door by overstating his experience, and I swear I wouldn't let him operate my Xerox copier.

 

[Al Ferrari]

You might want to take a closer look at your hiring process. Ineptitude may be more widespread than you think.

Al

 

[Xlb]

It used to be a Trade.

 

[oldschool]

My pressman insisted that all my black plates were punched incorrectly. They never fit! Heidelberg recently fixed the 4th unit on the press. They are now punched perfectly.

 

[rbailleu]

quote "I see this over and over again. It even takes a certain amount of skill to wipe one's ass, but I'm sure these people would blame their lack of hygeine on the toilet paper"


I have to say some toilet paper is better than others at getting the job done. unfortunately it cost too much to import german toilet paper.

 

[inkinveins]

You might want to take a closer look at your hiring process. Ineptitude may be more widespread than you think.

Believe me, If I would of done the hiring he or she would of been fired long ago.

 

[inkinveins]

I have to say some toilet paper is better than others at getting the job done. unfortunately it cost too much to import german toilet paper.[/QUOTE]

Touche, But I truly believe a skilled operator can usually make just about anything work, I am not asking for the impossible, just a back to basics approach to offset. When I used to run a press cable ties and duct tape were my best friends

 

[turbotom1052]

this situation unfortunatley exists throughout the industry. Some mediocre pressman would claim that the incompetents make them shine, but i feel that the incompetents bring down moral and pay scales

 

[D Ink Man]

As the industry matures, it is a part of the evolutionary process that incompetency will creep in. The skilled craftsman who had to set keys and do more manual make ready are being replaced, for lack of a better term, button pushers. I say put very high value on the tradesmen that have acquired their knowledges through experience. They are becoming a rare breed, so it is important to do the weeding out initially when selecting an employee in the hiring process. D

 

[GazKL440]

this situation unfortunatley exists throughout the industry. Some mediocre pressman would claim that the incompetents make them shine, but i feel that the incompetents bring down moral and pay scales

Mate i have got to agree with this!! With the recent GFC, a lot of mediocre, or just plain shithouse printers were culled out of the workforce, as employers offloaded unproductive units, so to speak. Unfortunately, this has lead to pay rate stagnation. I currently run a 40", with no assistant, and CANNOT get a pay raise. My boss just laughs and says "there are plenty of other printers out there".

What shits me to tears is the fact that he is right, and this gives me no bargaining power whatsoever Today i did a 14hr shift, starting on my big komori, before jumping on a 4col GTO and then running a last minute miracle job on a 526, and i am one of 2 printers out of our crew that can actually run all the machinery in the factory. But this does not seem to matter to my boss. He knows that I am easily replaced, and this allows him to keep wages exactly where they have been for some time. Bastard.

 

[printerpete]

Mate i have got to agree with this!! With the recent GFC, a lot of mediocre, or just plain shithouse printers were culled out of the workforce, as employers offloaded unproductive units, so to speak. Unfortunately, this has lead to pay rate stagnation. I currently run a 40", with no assistant, and CANNOT get a pay raise. My boss just laughs and says "there are plenty of other printers out there".

What shits me to tears is the fact that he is right, and this gives me no bargaining power whatsoever Today i did a 14hr shift, starting on my big komori, before jumping on a 4col GTO and then running a last minute miracle job on a 526, and i am one of 2 printers out of our crew that can actually run all the machinery in the factory. But this does not seem to matter to my boss. He knows that I am easily replaced, and this allows him to keep wages exactly where they have been for some time. Bastard.

see, a pressman will always think they deseve a pay rise. but for years material costs have been rising but because of demand prices have had to go down, so im not supised your boss wont give anyone a raise, id rather have no pay rise and a job than have a pay rise and the whole factory closes down after 6 months

 

[GazKL440]

see, a pressman will always think they deseve a pay rise. but for years material costs have been rising but because of demand prices have had to go down, so im not supised your boss wont give anyone a raise, id rather have no pay rise and a job than have a pay rise and the whole factory closes down after 6 months

And why would i not think i deserve a pay rise? I'm on call pretty much 24hrs, am versatile, have a lot of experience on a wide variety of presses, the price of EVERYTHING ELSE has risen dramatically over the last 24 months, and my workload has effectively doubled in the last 3 months. And a mere extra dollar an hour is too much??

I understand where your coming from, and as a result have not pushed the issue with my boss. To be honest its not about the money, its more about feeling valued by your employer. I work bloody hard for them, sometimes to the detriment of my health and my relationships with my wife and kids (try doing consecutive 12hr graveyards for a month: you lose track of your life quickly). And more often than not, they could not give a shit about you.... unless your hourly average drops or you break something or whatever....

 

[printerpete]

And why would i not think i deserve a pay rise? I'm on call pretty much 24hrs, am versatile, have a lot of experience on a wide variety of presses, the price of EVERYTHING ELSE has risen dramatically over the last 24 months, and my workload has effectively doubled in the last 3 months. And a mere extra dollar an hour is too much??

I understand where your coming from, and as a result have not pushed the issue with my boss. To be honest its not about the money, its more about feeling valued by your employer. I work bloody hard for them, sometimes to the detriment of my health and my relationships with my wife and kids (try doing consecutive 12hr graveyards for a month: you lose track of your life quickly). And more often than not, they could not give a shit about you.... unless your hourly average drops or you break something or whatever....

In An Ideal World, Wages Should Rise With Everything Else, But As Should the Price Of Printing, unfortunatly Deman Is shit and competition is high so the price of printing is coming down. Now i dont know what type of company you work for but it is very possible that your wok load has increased signifacantly but because costs have been rising and prices have been falling, the bottom line may well be the same as 3 yrs ago when you were turning our 8K imps an hour on a Rekord. unfotunatly becaus eof this Bosses are thinking poduction staff have to like it or lump it and in a way they are correct, because if their going to give everyone a pay rise and they end up with nothing in their pocket in their mind its jus not worth the hassle.

I remember on one thread you saying you do alot of Ad Agency work now im not sure what its like in Oz, but in UK Ad Agencies are the Hardest companies to wok for, they Want to find the smallest and manialist reaosn not to pay, they Pay incredibly late, and Their Work has the Least Profit in it. So if the Owner isnt Going to be Appropriatly rewarded for having to deal with those shits, and Having to balance Cash Flow He wouldnt Carry on. The jist of all this is yes we all probably Deserve a Pay Rise, but The industry in the State it is we have to be happy we have a Job to get up to in the Morning

 

[1Pressman]

Ineptitude

As a technician, Many owners are the inept ones not giving employees the proper tools.
Like having to run OLD equipment with OLD rollers, etc.
Most pressman I have ever known (1000+) will admit when they blow it!!!
If they constantly complain, it is
a) lack of experiance/ training or
b) the machine is a F en P.O.S.

Isn't it very aggravating when one tries to cover up one's lack of competence by blaming the equipment. I see this over and over again. It even takes a certain amount of skill to wipe one's ass, but I'm sure these people would blame their lack of hygeine on the toilet paper. I've recently experienced this one instance, where a sheetfed offset operator got in the door by overstating his experience, and I swear I wouldn't let him operate my Xerox copier.

 

[Al Ferrari]

1000+? If you had worked at a different shop each of the last 40 years and each shop had on average, 15 other pressmen besides you, that would make it 600 pressmen. I suppose the other 400+ you met at watering holes after work, eh? That's a lot of watering holes. That may be the problem right there

Oh, you did want to be taken seriously, no?

Al

 

[1Pressman]

Chill

Chill

I'm a service technician. I've been in the industry for 34 years. Some days I have visited 4-5 shops.
What are you thinking?
Do you dispute that most Pressman WILL fess-up when they err?
I was just pointing out that what is true. There are many Old presses with problems that need repairs. Some times The dificulties are due to equipment problems.
Why do you attack me?

Chill out!

1000+? If you had worked at a different shop each of the last 40 years and each shop had on average, 15 other pressmen besides you, that would make it 600 pressmen. I suppose the other 400+ you met at watering holes after work, eh? That's a lot of watering holes. That may be the problem right there

Oh, you did want to be taken seriously, no?

Al

 

[inkinveins]

As a technician, Many owners are the inept ones not giving employees the proper tools.
Like having to run OLD equipment with OLD rollers, etc.
Most pressman I have ever known (1000+) will admit when they blow it!!!
If they constantly complain, it is
a) lack of experiance/ training or
b) the machine is a F en P.O.S.

Look, We even have one on the planet, Old equipment doesn't neccesarily print any worse than new equipment, if it is in the right hands. New equipment might outproduce old equipment with less EFFORT, but nonetheless skilled operators with the right mindset will get the job off at any cost. I think they are alot less machines out there that are a P.O.S. than they are operators. Presses are easier to fix than pressman. I think you hit it right on the head about lack of experience though, but more training will only help the people that want to be trained.

 

[1Pressman]

Look, We even have one on the planet, Old equipment doesn't neccesarily print any worse than new equipment, if it is in the right hands. New equipment might outproduce old equipment with less EFFORT, but nonetheless skilled operators with the right mindset will get the job off at any cost. I think they are alot less machines out there that are a P.O.S. than they are operators. Presses are easier to fix than pressman. I think you hit it right on the head about lack of experience though, but more training will only help the people that want to be trained.

Don't disagree with any thing you said.
I was simply stating that sometimes there are problems with old presses. (And usually that is due to lack of maintanance-By the pressman).
I'm not saying, pressman don't screw-up, but ineptitude (and lazyness is evenly spead in all careers. I was trying to put some balance in the thread 'Inept pressman'
And owners do put off purchasing those rollers, etc. etc. Production, production, no time for maintanance. I've heard this from many pressman.
If my comments stick a nerve with anyone, they need to look in a mirror and ask themselves why?

 

[otherthoughts]

"John Wayne" toilet paper is rough, tough and won't take no sh*t!

"John Wayne" toilet paper is rough, tough and won't take no sh*t!

Is it the Ineptitude and the Incompetence really? Or is it the Failure to Accept Responsibility that we find most aggravating? Perhaps it's a blend of all three? Maybe some pressman are simply too inept and incompetent to realize that the fault rests upon their shoulders?

As pressmen, we all started off inept and incompetent to one degree or another. Whereas our personal willingness to accept responsibility, is both a function of our character's and how we expect our digressions to be handled within the environments in which they occur.

Many great posts thus far about declining pay scales for pressman. How the tools one uses play a role upon the results one gets, and the times, they are a changing.

I saw the pay scale for journeyman 4-color strippers essentially evaporate into nothingness. The craftsmanship and talent they possessed essentially fell by the wayside. Sure most of what they knew became incorporated into the software that replaced them, but not the kind of stuff that amounts to intuition!

Exactly the same thing happened in the high-end scanning field.

And now this seems to be occurring in the pressroom.

Each and every time the most experienced talent pool is replaced by software and mechanization, something is lost to the next generation. And those of us that have witnessed these changes firsthand are fully cognizant of exactly what has been lost and it frequently perturbs us.

I've no doubt that this has happened countless times before in many other fields, printing is no exception here. Progress marches onward for everyone.

In the end, what I suspect bothers us most...is the lack of respect we are often shown and the diminishing pool of people that share our fondness for the "Good ole Days".

Best Regards
OtherThoughts

 

[Alois Senefelder]

A Relic !!!

A Relic !!!

Otherthoughts and fellow Lithographers,


Being a relic from the "Stone Age" I'm in total agreement with the views expressed by our esteemed "Mr Otherthoughts"


Regards, Alois

PS - In my day, every problem in Lithography, well almost could be cured by a bottle of "Stale Beer"