Job Security

[turbotom1052]

Over the course of my 30 plus years in a sheetfed pressroom environment, and Im sure before I arrived on the scene, engineers, bean counters, efficiency experts, plant auditors, prepress techs, and all the suits lined up for miles, have been trying to turn the craft of ink on paper into a predictable, and repeatable process. Over them same 30 plus years I've seen tremendous progress with offset technology. Advancements in closed loop inking is one of the highlights of the progress that has impressed me the most. I can even see glimmers of benefit with Erics ink blade technology. The challenge as I see it is that as new technology is introduced, new variables are brought into the process. Just to name a few...
1. Quality of paper is to a point now where you can not count on extended run times due to the need to continuously stop the press to clean up something. That something being either plates, blankets, or rollers interrupts the stable emulsion that I think we can all agree on to be so important to consistent color. Poor quality paper contaminates not only plates, blankets, and rollers but also leaches into fountain solutions and contaminates it also. This contamination has a negative effect that is IMHO is very under reported.

2. Quality of all consumables makes for a moving target when it comes to getting a handle on the ink on paper process. When I talk of consumables quality I mostly think of inconsistent product from batch to batch. Ive seen far too much of this. Press crews can learn work arounds for inferior product if it is consistently inferior in the same way. Estimators will even begin to adjust pricing to reflect these work arounds.

There is much temptation for the bean counters to save a few bucks here and there by buying CRAP. Crap in results in crap out.
There is also the industry wide thinking that with all the new technology hiring truly skilled pressroom personnel is not quite the priority that is used to be. The thinking being that the technology will carry the press crew. To some extent this is true but I suggest upper management takes a good hard look at just how much they save when they have a multicolor press that bills out in the neighborhood of 300 plus per hour and have it manned by rookies. Imagine a mix of cutting edge technology with seasoned pros manning that technology???

I believe we are at a point of diminishing returns when it comes to offset technology. When the industry begins to demand that our suppliers of paper and consumables return to the days of manufacturing a consistently quality product for a fair price, then the benefits of all this technology can be fully realized. When upper management begins to see the benefits of manning their high tech pressroom acquisitions with fully competent press crews capable of getting the most out of their equipment things will change for the better.

 

[D Ink Man]

Over the course of my 30 plus years in a sheetfed pressroom environment, and Im sure before I arrived on the scene, engineers, bean counters, efficiency experts, plant auditors, prepress techs, and all the suits lined up for miles, have been trying to turn the craft of ink on paper into a predictable, and repeatable process. Over them same 30 plus years I've seen tremendous progress with offset technology. Advancements in closed loop inking is one of the highlights of the progress that has impressed me the most. I can even see glimmers of benefit with Erics ink blade technology. The challenge as I see it is that as new technology is introduced, new variables are brought into the process. Just to name a few...
1. Quality of paper is to a point now where you can not count on extended run times due to the need to continuously stop the press to clean up something. That something being either plates, blankets, or rollers interrupts the stable emulsion that I think we can all agree on to be so important to consistent color. Poor quality paper contaminates not only plates, blankets, and rollers but also leaches into fountain solutions and contaminates it also. This contamination has a negative effect that is IMHO is very under reported.

2. Quality of all consumables makes for a moving target when it comes to getting a handle on the ink on paper process. When I talk of consumables quality I mostly think of inconsistent product from batch to batch. Ive seen far too much of this. Press crews can learn work arounds for inferior product if it is consistently inferior in the same way. Estimators will even begin to adjust pricing to reflect these work arounds.

There is much temptation for the bean counters to save a few bucks here and there by buying CRAP. Crap in results in crap out.
There is also the industry wide thinking that with all the new technology hiring truly skilled pressroom personnel is not quite the priority that is used to be. The thinking being that the technology will carry the press crew. To some extent this is true but I suggest upper management takes a good hard look at just how much they save when they have a multicolor press that bills out in the neighborhood of 300 plus per hour and have it manned by rookies. Imagine a mix of cutting edge technology with seasoned pros manning that technology???

I believe we are at a point of diminishing returns when it comes to offset technology. When the industry begins to demand that our suppliers of paper and consumables return to the days of manufacturing a consistently quality product for a fair price, then the benefits of all this technology can be fully realized. When upper management begins to see the benefits of manning their high tech pressroom acquisitions with fully competent press crews capable of getting the most out of their equipment things will change for the better.

Sir, you have said a lot! And you have spoken PURE TRUTH.

As short as 30 years ago the conundrum you present here was handled by the ink men. Truly, I present.

It was the job and task of the ink supplier true technicians to interact, evaluate, troubleshoot and sometimes share a beer together at the end of the day. Note: The beer would only come after the press/pressroom was running at maximum efficiency.

Then what happened? The MEGA sized corporations (names unmentioned) gobbled up the medium to small size ink companies that provided these services. These MEGA fellows did not purchase, acquire the little guys for their expertises. They grabbed them because of the business they possessed. They did not and still do not realize that the reason the smaller entities had the business was because they provided but two things.

1) Product > An ink product that fit a printing machine and provided the necessary runnabilty and printability to produce quality reproductions for their customer. Henceforth, the ink suppliers job was to provide CONSISTENCY of product. That is all it is.

2) Service > A boots on ground 'LIVE PERSON', that was available 24-7-365 to SERVICE their customer and provide assistance, help, consultation, reformulation and anything necessary to the point of admonition. It was the responsibility of the ink man to earn the business via these methodologies.

And guess what? It worked!! The pressroom ran like a well oiled machine and the ink company received TOP DOLLAR per pound for their ink because of what they did. Selling price was not an issue. The printer paid whatever price the ink company sold it at, because of the total package that was delivered and that was delivered consistently.

Now to today. For the most part, the bean coiner as you refer to, decides to buy the CHEAPEST priced ink he can find. What are the repercussions from this?

Well sir, your reply I just provided quote to, explains everything.

D Ink Man

 

[cementary]

Now to today. For the most part, the bean coiner as you refer to, decides to buy the CHEAPEST priced ink he can find. What are the repercussions from this?

Well sir, your reply I just provided quote to, explains everything.

A small addition from russia with love:
not only price is counted – even if other consumable work better and priced lower none of the middle/upper management are willing to change for it just because they do not want to change anything. I was really emabarrassed when i first saw how eagerly they ate shit from fake ink vendor technologists just not to change anything

 

[D Ink Man]

More confirming sentiment.........

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello Gentlemen,

I wish to remind..........

I wish to thank "turbotom an D Ink Man" for their excellent commentary.

In my opinion these 4 fundamental introductions, propelled

Lithography into its present dominant position in printing.

1) Pre-sensitized Plates 2) Compressible Blankets

3) Squeese-roller Dampening Systems 4) Computer Controlled Inking.

Regards, Alois

 

[turbotom1052]

Hello Gentlemen,

I wish to remind..........

I wish to thank "turbotom an D Ink Man" for their excellent commentary.

In my opinion these 4 fundamental introductions, propelled

Lithography into its present dominant position in printing.

1) Pre-sensitized Plates 2) Compressible Blankets

3) Squeese-roller Dampening Systems 4) Computer Controlled Inking.

Regards, Alois

Alois,
all great advancements. If I had to choose one of the three Id have to say that the continuous flow dampening was the biggest. But even that was not without flaws. Looking back and comparing a modern dampening system with the old school ductor style system you must admit that there is something to be said for the old inverted water bottle delivering a fresh and uncontaminated supply of fountain solution. Why hasn't a press engineer stepped up and married the 2 systems??? Instead they have used all kinds of fancy filtration systems to address the problem. Seems like it would be easier to prevent the problem from occurring, rather than fixing it after it has already occurred.

 

[D Ink Man]

And I must say that the ink transfer blade concept conceived by Erik is a lost tool to date. I believe in the genius of him and wish through great savvy that a company like Heidelberg, Komori and/or Man Roland would latch on with him and develop it to it's fullest capable fruition. I know it is frustrating and I know his passion for something that could truly send offset printing to a higher level. You never know, it could happen.

D

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Looking back and comparing a modern dampening system with the old school ductor style system you must admit that there is something to be said for the old inverted water bottle delivering a fresh and uncontaminated supply of fountain solution. Why hasn't a press engineer stepped up and married the 2 systems??? Instead they have used all kinds of fancy filtration systems to address the problem. Seems like it would be easier to prevent the problem from occurring, rather than fixing it after it has already occurred.

Yes, this has great potential and has been one of my interests to improve the process. Fixing the fountain solution problem can only be done when the ink feed problem is fixed where that ink feed is not affected by any changes in fount solution supply.

Many studies and tests have been done to show that the lithographic process on the plate will work quite well when the fount solution is added at different locations in the press. But with the existing ink feed method used now, applying fount solution for from the ink feed helps to reduce its affect on ink transfer into the roller train.

I believe also that applying fountain solutions right at the plate and/or first form roller, causes a number of problems with printing a non uniform emulsion and with toning issues where ink is sheared off the ink rollers and is dispersed into the fountain solution due to specific design of dampening units.

The issues related to systems to filter, cool, maintaining some kind of chemistry in the tanks is only due to the need to recirculate the solution due to the design of the dampening system.

I agree that fountain solution will be better applied if it is directly introduced into the roller train without any recycling but without any tray used either. No tanks and no chemistry/conductivity maintenance required.

IMO this is the way to go but it can not be done without the ink feed problem corrected. When the ink feed problem is corrected and independent of changes in fountain solution feed, then the fountain solution feed does not have to be so critical.

Press engineers are in a bad situation, which is partly their own fault. Engineers use common practice or theory to design new technology. If they don't have the theory all they are left with is common practice. But even learning the theory is no guarantee. I can tell you that two new presses designed recently in Spain and Holland were designed by engineers that participated in a two day seminar I gave them on press design related to Colour control and predictability. They even tested my ITB and knew it worked. But these engineers just designed these new presses basically doing what was done before and the totally avoided to do the critical step that was required to change the process.

Why did that happen? I believe that the engineers that work for press manufacturers are NOT driven to make fundamental improvements but tend to be hiding out in an industry that does not demand much out of them. They are not excited about doing the anything revolutionary. I have had the same type of feedback from engineers in all the major press manufacturing companies. They don't care and don't want to be doing anything really different. They are not curious. They are just happy to do their day job and then go home. Their management never asks for more and in fact their management even puts up barriers to discourage any little interest in doing something special.

There are no Skunkworks in the printing industry where scientists and engineers can try out all kinds of concepts for offset with the goal of obtaining practical and revolutionary solutions. I have never found any group of people that actually wanted and were allowed to do anything truly new and different. Even TAGA still have papers presented that are faulty and demonstrate that the authors have no idea of how things work and they don't really want to know. They just like the prestige of presenting papers to groups of other people who are not able to understand and create much new knowledge that is actually valid and applicable.

Engineers and scientists with talent do not go into the printing industry and if they do, they leave very quickly.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello Gentlemen and turbotom,


"T" I disagree with your choice, of the 4 fundamental introductions. I choose

Pre-sensitized Plates which herald the dawn for the future of Lithography.

Previously the gold standard plate used was the Deep Etch Plate, which

took 3 hours to make a B1 size plate, the other 3 fundamentals came much later.

Regards, Alois

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Erik,

I repeat myself again ! without the Chemistry of Fountain Solutions

Lithography would Not Work !

Regards, Alois

 

[Deleted member 16349]

And I must say that the ink transfer blade concept conceived by Erik is a lost tool to date. I believe in the genius of him and wish through great savvy that a company like Heidelberg, Komori and/or Man Roland would latch on with him and develop it to it's fullest capable fruition. I know it is frustrating and I know his passion for something that could truly send offset printing to a higher level. You never know, it could happen.

D

D Ink Man, lost tool is a good description and thanks for the kind words.

The patents for the ITB are near the end of their useful life and due to the increased expense to maintain them, they will be abandoned. That means that there is no commercial value for me in having a press manufacturer adopt the concept.

Yes it is frustrating but I have to say that I don't care that much anymore about the future of offset.

There are still many interesting things that could be done to improve offset but there aren't many interesting and capable people (engineers and scientists) to do them with and have fun. I don't expect that will change. I am looking into different things to think about.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Gentlemen,

Erik has a pessimistic view of the printing industry, in particular

the Press Manufacturers.

I'm sure that Heidelberg is well aware of Erik's ITB patent and if

it had any superiority over the present day inking systems, they would be

using I T B

Regards, Alois

 

[Deleted member 16349]

"

Gentlemen,

Erik has a pessimistic view of the printing industry, in particular

the Press Manufacturers.

I'm sure that Heidelberg is well aware of Erik's ITB patent and if

it had any superiority over the present day inking systems, they would be

using I T B

Regards, Alois

Yes, they were aware.

The following is a response I got from a top Heidelberg engineer back in 2006.

"Sorry for the delay. We discussed once more the ITB and the ongoing in this topic from Heidelberg side.

We see a certain potential in this ITB technology. The major opportunity of the ITB is that the state of the ink in the ink train less effects the ink feed rate into the inker (feedback-free inker). We expect a greater independence of the ink-water balance and the temperature conditions in the inker, perhaps also different press speeds might less influence the metered ink amount.

On the other hand we assume that the realization will lead to greater problems concerning the homogenity of the ink film thickness. Especially the ink transfer from the ITB onto the pickup roller is critical seen. This functional risk requires an intensiv investigation and treatment.

At the moment we are working on a lot of projects, therefore we don't see the possibility and the available manpower to go with more power into this technology. I'll feel free to contact you again, when the situation changes."


As I saw from their response, they understood the potential. IMO they over estimated the difficulties related to the actual transfer because they like to think in terms of transferring films of ink and not the more important transfer of consistent volume of ink. i have always viewed the transfer of non ink film volumes (globs) as not critical because there are several engineering ways to ensure that it does not negatively affect the print.

The final comment was the most important. They did not follow a path, that they understood and accepted to be possible because they had no time. Basically it was not as important to them. They had other priorities. But picking priorities is important.

Of course, over this time, the shares in Heidelberg went from levels of up to 40 Euros to todays value at 2.6 Euros.

I find it funny that I can successfully do investigations into the problem they thought was critical while they, a huge corporation, can't.

 

[D Ink Man]

Yes, thanks for the share price of Heidelberg. Maybe if they had stuck with what they do, build printing presses the share price and their profits would be higher. I understand that the demand for presses is perhaps less, but they could have offshooted their mechanical expertise and engineering into something that parallels the skill.

Getting into the consumable business and slapping their label on resale products was a poor decision. C'mon, Saphira ink. Really?

Printers know; they want to sell the whole package, press and every consumable in contract. With that, you get a roly poly salesman that cannot possibly have anyway near the technical expertise to service the printer. He probably has a nice cocktail credit card and game tickets for the fools who subscribe to that. While their press room suffers. Such a pity, these ways of the industry we now exist in.

D

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello Erik, Thank you for the clairification regarding ITB What response have you had

from the other manufacturers ?

Regards, Alois

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Yes, thanks for the share price of Heidelberg. Maybe if they had stuck with what they do, build printing presses the share price and their profits would be higher. I understand that the demand for presses is perhaps less, but they could have offshooted their mechanical expertise and engineering into something that parallels the skill.

Getting into the consumable business and slapping their label on resale products was a poor decision. C'mon, Saphira ink. Really?

Printers know; they want to sell the whole package, press and every consumable in contract. With that, you get a roly poly salesman that cannot possibly have anyway near the technical expertise to service the printer. He probably has a nice cocktail credit card and game tickets for the fools who subscribe to that. While their press room suffers. Such a pity, these ways of the industry we now exist in.

D

You maybe right about the consumable part of the business plan, I don't know. What I would say is that Heidelberg bought back shares when the price was high which was not too clever a business decision. Big companies can make mistakes.

Much of the drop in share price was probably due to the overall drop in purchases of press equipment during the financial crisis and the belief that digital will eventually replace offset. During such a time, an important strategy would have been to try to increase market share with innovation. The market shrunk but I don't think there was much movement in market share of all the press manufacturers, probably because there was no differentiation between their technologies being marketed to the industry. IMO having a low cost technology that fundamentally changes the process and that had some patent protection, would have helped increase their market share. A technology that might of helped their customers run inferior consumables.

Anyhow, this is all old news and has no importance now.

Back to business as usual.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hello Erik, Thank you for the clairification regarding ITB What response have you had

from the other manufacturers ?

Regards, Alois

It's too long a story and it is too depressing to go into details. I got mixed responses from being positive to no comment for almost two decades. Priority was always a problem. Many of the companies that showed interest but for some reason would not prioritize the ITB higher, even went bankrupt. The idea that somehow making the same technology over and over again was going to be a safe business decision seems to be common. Job Security as far as a press manufacturer is concerned is not obtained by not innovating enough.

The ITB did what I said it did. That does not mean that it was ready to be a product. I have never said it is ready to be a product. It needed development and testing to see if there were any issues, just like any other prototype concept. It didn't really get the chance and I had no control over that.

Anyhow, this is past history.

 

[gordo]

The whole point of printing is to a thing once, get approval, and then repeat it over and over and over again.
That thinking is the foundation and core to print industry culture from printshop to vendor.
"Why fix it if it ain't broke?"
"That's how we've always done it. Works for us."

ROTFL!

 

[turbotom1052]

Hello Gentlemen and turbotom,


"T" I disagree with your choice, of the 4 fundamental introductions. I choose

Pre-sensitized Plates which herald the dawn for the future of Lithography.

Previously the gold standard plate used was the Deep Etch Plate, which

took 3 hours to make a B1 size plate, the other 3 fundamentals came much later.

Regards, Alois

Alois,
what will it take for me to enter into the classification of "GENTLEMAN"? I can provide references if need be. The ole ball and chain will vouch for me. I could be more thoughtful with my words. Less controversial. Hell I could even turn over a new leaf and delete all my old posts.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello fellow Lithographers and turbotom, esquire.



turbotom, esquire, Please forgive my "Faux pas" no need to change anything, just continue

posting you Scintillating Comments!

Regards, Alois