konica 12000 VS Ricoh 9200

[azehnali]

from what I see stated as duty cycle and reality I will say that duty cycle is the life of the machine running 300gsm plus at 12x18 sheets

 

[donnied]

numbers sound good
what about reality

I service quite a few Ricoh C9200 series machines and they run extremely well. Most of them are averaging well over a million impressions a month. The fuser units have proven to be bullet-proof, with most not even having been serviced at all after millions of prints.
The printer comes with customer serviceable parts, so the downtime to replace them is as long as it takes the customer to do it, which is in minutes. The duty cycle is based on 8.5x11 paper but these customers run mostly 11x17, and still exceed 1 million impressions/month.
It is toner based also.

 

[azehnali]

so what you are saying is that meters on these machines should be around 60 million after 5 years?
I am yet to see a Ricoh with over 10 million impressions on it (being in the copier industry for 34 years)
Even the Xerox Igens don't have meters that high

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

so what you are saying is that meters on these machines should be around 60 million after 5 years?
I am yet to see a Ricoh with over 10 million impressions on it (being in the copier industry for 34 years)
Even the Xerox Igens don't have meters that high

I think I have heard of iGens running 3 million per month.

 

[donnied]

I think I have heard of iGens running 3 million per month.

so what you are saying is that meters on these machines should be around 60 million after 5 years?
I am yet to see a Ricoh with over 10 million impressions on it (being in the copier industry for 34 years)
Even the Xerox Igens don't have meters that h

so what you are saying is that meters on these machines should be around 60 million after 5 years?
I am yet to see a Ricoh with over 10 million impressions on it (being in the copier industry for 34 years)
Even the Xerox Igens don't have meters that high

You might not be getting out enough. My highest volume Ricoh C9210 has 16.5 million clicks, but it's only been at the account for 16 months. My highest count C9110 has 26 million. I have seen a site with three C9110's that have a total of 153 million clicks and have only been there for just over three years. These are real world numbers.

 

[slimbh]

So no-one run or know the new konica c12000?

 

[donnied]

So no-one run or know the new

It looks like the drum life may be one of the biggest advantages of the Ricoh, which is rated at 950k vs the Konica's 600k, so it gets replaced around 50% less often. Also the Konica uses a drum unit, which has the cleaning unit inside it, which means it's easier to replace both in one step, but you are paying for everything to be replaced every time. The Ricoh has a separate cleaning unit, that is rebuilt after use. I'm not sure how that translates if you don't have a service agreement though.
Historically, the biggest advantage of the Ricoh has been it was much better at paper registration than the Konica's. If you just compare the physical size of the registration units between the machines, you can see the difference, the Ricoh being much bigger. Konica may have closed the registration gap, but that would have to be compared side to side.

 

[jwheeler]

I wouldn’t put much stock into the “duty cycle” though. Also remember, duty cycle is single sided 20# 8.5x11. Divide the duty cycle by 4, then divide by 2 and that’s probably what you should be maxing them out a month at

I completely understand this. I used to sell production gear for KM and I would explain this to customers all the time. You are correct in that it's basically a calculation of running Letter/A4 20# in a perfect world scenario. But even with your math reducing the numbers, the Ricoh still comes out ahead. OP says they are regularly running heavy stock, so this will reduce the duty cycle of components even more. However, the ppm, paper capacity, and gsm handling are hard facts that will attribute to productivity and capability. My main point was to say that they are not equivalent units based on basic specs alone.

Now, as for the reliability of either machine, color consistency, registration consistency, cost of parts/supplies if not on a service contract as OP implied, handling of mixed media, and so on.... those are factors which are more difficult to measure without lots of testing. A great resource to see real world test results where they run the same 10 jobs on every machine is ProPrintPerformance.com. Local tech support for service is another huge factor that OP will have to consider.

 

[jwheeler]

Historically, the biggest advantage of the Ricoh has been it was much better at paper registration than the Konica's. If you just compare the physical size of the registration units between the machines, you can see the difference, the Ricoh being much bigger. Konica may have closed the registration gap, but that would have to be compared side to side.

In regards to registration on the KM's, they fixed this issue when they came out with the IQ-501 back on the C6085/C6100 series. I have a C6085 here in my shop and we need tight registration for all the business cards (along with other projects of course) that we run and then cut through our slitter/cutter/creaser. It hasn't been a problem at all. Even without it, the registration on the C1085 and C1100 was pretty solid. So it's only going to be better on the C12000.

(Edited to exclude drum comment since OP stated Ricoh drums are lower cost in earlier comment)

 

[msaeger]

If the Ricoh drum lasts 58% longer, does it cost that much more too? I don't know the answer, but worth considering. If so, you're not actually saving money, just changing less often (theoretically). And there's no guarantee it will last that long (unless they will honor that when buying parts outside of a service contract, which I doubt any vendor will due to the unknown happening in the print shop every day). As for registration on the KM's, they fixed this issue when they came out with the IQ-501 back on the C6085/C6100 series. I have a C6085 here in my shop and we need tight registration for all the business cards (along with other projects of course) that we run and then cut through our slitter/cutter/creaser. It hasn't been a problem at all. Even without it, the registration on the C1085 and C1100 was pretty solid. So it's only going to be better on the C12000.

But back to you @slimbh , isn't it funny how you come with a simple question and all of us 'experts' go off on lots of tangents? I've seen you ask again if anyone has the C12000 so they can provide real feedback. Unfortunately, the C12000/C14000 is so new, that there aren't many on the market, and those who do have one, haven't had it for very long to speak of long term durability. Additionally, it's quite rare for people to have a machine of that caliber without a service contract, so knowing the cost of consumables and parts in real world practice is going to be difficult to get accurate info on.

I find the Ricoh drums are really durable and last longer than the rating as long as the rest of the parts like the lube bars are kept up. I don't really know the cost but I know they are cheap compared to the old selenium ones. I remember people going to great lengths to save those old ones.

 

[donnied]

I find the Ricoh drums are really durable and last longer than the rating as long as the rest of the parts like the lube bars are kept up. I don't really know the cost but I know they are cheap compared to the old selenium ones. I remember people going to great lengths to save those old ones.

If the Ricoh drum lasts 58% longer, does it cost that much more too? I don't know the answer, but worth considering. If so, you're not actually saving money, just changing less often (theoretically). And there's no guarantee it will last that long (unless they will honor that when buying parts outside of a service contract, which I doubt any vendor will due to the unknown happening in the print shop every day). As for registration on the KM's, they fixed this issue when they came out with the IQ-501 back on the C6085/C6100 series. I have a C6085 here in my shop and we need tight registration for all the business cards (along with other projects of course) that we run and then cut through our slitter/cutter/creaser. It hasn't been a problem at all. Even without it, the registration on the C1085 and C1100 was pretty solid. So it's only going to be better on the C12000.

But back to you @slimbh , isn't it funny how you come with a simple question and all of us 'experts' go off on lots of tangents? I've seen you ask again if anyone has the C12000 so they can provide real feedback. Unfortunately, the C12000/C14000 is so new, that there aren't many on the market, and those who do have one, haven't had it for very long to speak of long term durability. Additionally, it's quite rare for people to have a machine of that caliber without a service contract, so knowing the cost of consumables and parts in real world practice is going to be difficult to get accurate info on.

As for the drum cost, we'll have to go with the info from the earlier poster who stated the Ricoh drum cost was lower. So, with the cost lower and the life longer, and adding in less downtime, that is a pertinent point in answering the second part of the OP's question about comparing to the C9200.

 

[jwheeler]

As for the drum cost, we'll have to go with the info from the earlier poster who stated the Ricoh drum cost was lower. So, with the cost lower and the life longer, and adding in less downtime, that is a pertinent point in answering the second part of the OP's question about comparing to the C9200.

Good call @donnied! I missed that earlier post in the midst of all the responses!