Need Advice & Reviews - Leasing a new light Production Press

[PrintIsMyJam]

We're looking to lease a new light production press. We currently have a Xerox C75 and our dealer has been a mess and the machine is obsolete.

Currently have quotes from Ricoh for a Pro5200 although they are suggest the new IM C6000 (I don't think they realize the extent of our heavy stock usage)...Any reason to downgrade to a MFP? Also any experiences with the Pro5200 positive or negative?

Then we have a quote for a Canon ImagePress C650. Again, any experiences positive or negative?

How do you find the service with Ricoh vs Canon. I imagine it will have to be better than my experience with Xerox (my dealer...more than Corporate).

I'm looking to do test runs for both of them, but I really value actual life experiences and reviews over a short test run.

Any companies other than these you feel strongly about me reaching out to? We've already decided against Xerox again.

Thank you so much, in advance, for any help you offer!

 

[kslight]

What kind of volume and stock do you run? I have J75s but when I think C75 I think those specific Ricoh machines sound like a step down, or at best a lateral move?

I have recently seen a few demos on a Ricoh 7210sx, which it did great on registration and heavy stock, things that the J75s really struggle with...not sure if that is more machine than you are thinking but I came away more impressed than I expected.

Also done a lot of demos on KM C6100...no complaints here either, again may be more machine than you are thinking, but they have smaller models that basically trickle down the best of that probably to a machine closer to what you need. If you are out shopping, IMHO you may as well see what KM has to offer for comparison's sake.

No experience with service as we have not made a change yet, but we have gotten very attractive pricing from both Ricoh and KM. Canon has been pretty slow to the table, I don't really like how the prints look off of the C650...one of our Canon vendors sends us postcards in the mail every month and they boast "printed on a C650" and they consistently don't impress...but I have not sat there and taken a full demo on the machine either so take that FWIW.

 

[PrintIsMyJam]

What kind of volume and stock do you run? I have J75s but when I think C75 I think those specific Ricoh machines sound like a step down, or at best a lateral move?

I have recently seen a few demos on a Ricoh 7210sx, which it did great on registration and heavy stock, things that the J75s really struggle with...not sure if that is more machine than you are thinking but I came away more impressed than I expected.

Also done a lot of demos on KM C6100...no complaints here either, again may be more machine than you are thinking, but they have smaller models that basically trickle down the best of that probably to a machine closer to what you need. If you are out shopping, IMHO you may as well see what KM has to offer for comparison's sake.

No experience with service as we have not made a change yet, but we have gotten very attractive pricing from both Ricoh and KM. Canon has been pretty slow to the table, I don't really like how the prints look off of the C650...one of our Canon vendors sends us postcards in the mail every month and they boast "printed on a C650" and they consistently don't impress...but I have not sat there and taken a full demo on the machine either so take that FWIW.

Thanks for the input.

We're around 20-25k clicks a month. Not huge volume... We mainly do too much to afford sending out, but too little to need a really powerful machine. Want to do everything in house. We want the quality to still be the best we can afford. A lot of of our volume is 13x19 or 12x18 duplexing of 100#-110# stock...coated and uncoated....also, quite a bit of 11x17 booklets/calendars...Brochures and the like.

According to our Ricoh salesman he thinks the Pro5200 is overkill. So i'm glad I'm asking here. I will take a look at the KM and give a dealer a call too.

Thanks again for responding!

 

[AP90]

Thanks for the input.

We're around 20-25k clicks a month. Not huge volume... We mainly do too much to afford sending out, but too little to need a really powerful machine. Want to do everything in house. We want the quality to still be the best we can afford. A lot of of our volume is 13x19 or 12x18 duplexing of 100#-110# stock...coated and uncoated....also, quite a bit of 11x17 booklets/calendars...Brochures and the like.

According to our Ricoh salesman he thinks the Pro5200 is overkill. So i'm glad I'm asking here. I will take a look at the KM and give a dealer a call too.

Thanks again for responding!

Are you finishing inline or do you do all of your finishing off line?

 

[PrintIsMyJam]

Are you finishing inline or do you do all of your finishing off line?

in line - we have all the finishing options except the binding & trimming.

 

[AP90]

I know you’ve said you are ruling out Xerox but the V180 and 3100 cam do inline fill bleed booklets at rated speed, or 2 sheets less per minute. Quality is outstanding, and being able to box the booklets as they come off the finisher is a huge advantage. And they’re square folded so they lay perfect. Adding these finishing options has made it so much easier for us.

 

[MailGuru]

We're an all-Xerox shop, but, then, we ONLY deal with corporate (never dealers). I boot them (dealers) out as quickly as they come in the front door.

 

[kslight]

Thanks for the input.

We're around 20-25k clicks a month. Not huge volume... We mainly do too much to afford sending out, but too little to need a really powerful machine. Want to do everything in house. We want the quality to still be the best we can afford. A lot of of our volume is 13x19 or 12x18 duplexing of 100#-110# stock...coated and uncoated....also, quite a bit of 11x17 booklets/calendars...Brochures and the like.

According to our Ricoh salesman he thinks the Pro5200 is overkill. So i'm glad I'm asking here. I will take a look at the KM and give a dealer a call too.

Thanks again for responding!

I am skeptical of your Ricoh salesman just for recommending the IM C6000? That doesn't look like a great fit, though admittedly I don't know much about it.

On paper, the 5200 may be adequate, but I don't know enough about that machine. 25k 12x18 though, basically means 50-60k impressions in how these machines are rated. If you go through the specs of the 5200...the max monthly volume is 150k. The C6000 is 50k. Now I would generally take that number and divide that by 4, and that's how many 12x18 impressions you probably will be able to get through in a month without wearing the machine out and or seeing service every day. If most of your work is heavy coverage and thick paper, you might cut that number in half again, and expect to see service more frequently. Ask your dealer for the customer expectation document. That will say something regarding monthly volume, to where if you consistently run above a certain volume per month, the life expectancy of the machine would be affected. My take from that though, is that your sales person sounds very silly for recommending a C6000.

A lot of people here will (rightly) tell you that the "light production" machines will struggle duplexing 12x18 or 13x19 on 100# or 110# accurately. I agree with that statement...and I would stress that you'll need to demo the hell out of any machine to make sure it meets your requirements.

 

[Shawnd]

I would see if Ricoh can give you numbers on a slightly used 7100.

 

[wonderings]

I know you’ve said you are ruling out Xerox but the V180 and 3100 cam do inline fill bleed booklets at rated speed, or 2 sheets less per minute. Quality is outstanding, and being able to box the booklets as they come off the finisher is a huge advantage. And they’re square folded so they lay perfect. Adding these finishing options has made it so much easier for us.

+1

We deal directly with Xerox. We have had some troubles in the past but with some fighting it has always been resolved. The Versant series is a solid digital press and you get some added benefits like being able to run envelopes. The only time my 2100 jams doing #10 plain or window envelopes is if I did not load them correctly.

Been extremely happy with our Versant, consistent colours and registration, it is the best digital press we have ever had.

 

[PrintIsMyJam]

Can I ask max resolution - 2400x2400 dpi vs 1200x4800. I'm not really familiar with 1200x4800....

Sorry I'm new this world and want to make sure I'm making the best choice for my company.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

+1

We deal directly with Xerox. We have had some troubles in the past but with some fighting it has always been resolved. The Versant series is a solid digital press and you get some added benefits like being able to run envelopes. The only time my 2100 jams doing #10 plain or window envelopes is if I did not load them correctly.

Been extremely happy with our Versant, consistent colours and registration, it is the best digital press we have ever had.

Our Xerox Versant 180P is incredibly solid compared to the J75 we used to have. We went for all the bells and whistles for finishing and are certainly not disappointed. Highly recommend you take a look at Xerox again - no one else is offering as much in-line finishing as them. It's nice to be able to put in three quarters of a pallet of paper into a machine and have fully-finished booklets come out, that you simply put in the box. No extra fiddling required.

 

[wonderings]

Our Xerox Versant 180P is incredibly solid compared to the J75 we used to have. We went for all the bells and whistles for finishing and are certainly not disappointed. Highly recommend you take a look at Xerox again - no one else is offering as much in-line finishing as them. It's nice to be able to put in three quarters of a pallet of paper into a machine and have fully-finished booklets come out, that you simply put in the box. No extra fiddling required.

our J75 was a nightmare. A year of fighting with Xerox had them take it back at full price and put that towards a heavy reduced price Versant 2100 which is a dream to run.

We do all our finishing offline, other then fold and staple. Those types of jobs are generally too large to run digitally.

 

[PrintIsMyJam]

I am skeptical of your Ricoh salesman just for recommending the IM C6000? That doesn't look like a great fit, though admittedly I don't know much about it.

On paper, the 5200 may be adequate, but I don't know enough about that machine. 25k 12x18 though, basically means 50-60k impressions in how these machines are rated. If you go through the specs of the 5200...the max monthly volume is 150k. The C6000 is 50k. Now I would generally take that number and divide that by 4, and that's how many 12x18 impressions you probably will be able to get through in a month without wearing the machine out and or seeing service every day. If most of your work is heavy coverage and thick paper, you might cut that number in half again, and expect to see service more frequently. Ask your dealer for the customer expectation document. That will say something regarding monthly volume, to where if you consistently run above a certain volume per month, the life expectancy of the machine would be affected. My take from that though, is that your sales person sounds very silly for recommending a C6000.

A lot of people here will (rightly) tell you that the "light production" machines will struggle duplexing 12x18 or 13x19 on 100# or 110# accurately. I agree with that statement...and I would stress that you'll need to demo the hell out of any machine to make sure it meets your requirements.

After messaging with you and a conference call with them yesterday, I was skeptical too. Was seriously questioning if I even wanted to test their machines.... Then called back today and after finally hearing me and researching what we have and what we need. They agreed with us that the 5200 would be a better fit and removed the C6000 as an option altogether. So that makes me happier.

Getting ready to test them next week. Any advice on testing... how many copies is an adequate test...I don't want to be excessive and wasteful, but I want to make sure the machine will do what we need it to. I'm bring various types of jobs...a brochure, a booklet, a postcard, one of our weekly programs.

Also may I ask:
max resolution - 2400x2400 dpi vs 1200x4800. I'm not really familiar with 1200x4800.... what's the difference? Is one better than the other?

Sorry I'm new this world and want to make sure I'm making the best choice for my company. So appreciate any and all of your help.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

You'll want to see actual print samples. Each of those resolutions also has a bit depth that would be "@ 1" "@ 8" or "@ 10". The higher the bit depth, the better the gradients and sweeps look. Our J75 was 600 x 600 @ 8, but when compared again our V180P with 1200 x 1200 @ 10, it's a totally different game (even if it was running 600 x 600 @ 8).

Oh also make sure you give them your own files for testing.

 

[kslight]

After messaging with you and a conference call with them yesterday, I was skeptical too. Was seriously questioning if I even wanted to test their machines.... Then called back today and after finally hearing me and researching what we have and what we need. They agreed with us that the 5200 would be a better fit and removed the C6000 as an option altogether. So that makes me happier.

Getting ready to test them next week. Any advice on testing... how many copies is an adequate test...I don't want to be excessive and wasteful, but I want to make sure the machine will do what we need it to. I'm bring various types of jobs...a brochure, a booklet, a postcard, one of our weekly programs.

Also may I ask:
max resolution - 2400x2400 dpi vs 1200x4800. I'm not really familiar with 1200x4800.... what's the difference? Is one better than the other?

Sorry I'm new this world and want to make sure I'm making the best choice for my company. So appreciate any and all of your help.

Well I've talked to a lot of copier sales people lately...I will tell you, most of them do not know enough about running the equipment to even qualify as an operator at my employer. Just like a car sales person, probably isn't a mechanic or even a professional driver. It is what it is, you have to use your best judgement and test the machines for yourself.

I personally set aside my "ugliest" (read: hardest to print/easiest to look bad) jobs for printer test samples. Jobs with very fine details, process grays, heavy solids, etc... I also take "bad" paper with me and "good" paper. It is common for our customers to want to print "as cheap as possible," which means running on cheap uncoated stocks that aren't very smooth. I also bring really smooth, uncoated sheets. And I bring in really heavy coated stuff. I bring heavy textured stuff. I bring the same paper and files to every potential vendor so I can make a good comparison. I also see how consistent the registration is. If you have a live job you need to run, most vendors should be more than happy to allow you to run a few thousand sheets or more at no charge, and that should be part of your test as well.


Resolution...a lot of it falls into buzz word category to try to sell you on something on paper. What matters is what the prints look like. Yes, it does matter, but you can't really make a decision based on that spec alone.

 

[jwheeler]

Thanks for the input.

We're around 20-25k clicks a month. Not huge volume... We mainly do too much to afford sending out, but too little to need a really powerful machine. Want to do everything in house. We want the quality to still be the best we can afford. A lot of of our volume is 13x19 or 12x18 duplexing of 100#-110# stock...coated and uncoated....also, quite a bit of 11x17 booklets/calendars...Brochures and the like.

According to our Ricoh salesman he thinks the Pro5200 is overkill. So i'm glad I'm asking here. I will take a look at the KM and give a dealer a call too.

Thanks again for responding!

Someone mentioned the Konica Minolta C6100, which I think is overkill for your volume unless you really just want that speed. Check out the C3070 or C3080 (70 and 80ppm respectively). These duplex up to 350 gsm, and they have vacuum feed paper decks which is great for the heavier and coated stocks. Don't let them talk you into the SD-510 booklet maker though...go for the SD-506 if you just need face trimming, or the SD-513 if you need 3-knife trimming and creasing on the covers to prevent the cracking.

 

[printmore]

Suggest you consider the C3070 or C3080 from Konica Minolta based on your volume and media. The unit can be configured with the IQ501 which automates front/back registration very accurately. Operators feedback, they like it, reduces setup time. In addition the IQ501 will perform calibration. Add EFI Color Profiler suite and the IQ501 can now measure for ICC paper profiles and route the ICC file to the Fiery binding the measurement to the paper name. For finishing, an inline squareback finisher is available with 3 side trim and creasing. I have one printer that imposes 2 up booklets on 12X18. Granted this is only for smaller booklets in finished size, he has repeat clients that like the output. Using the squareback finisher with 3 sided trim, he just makes one cut to split the books. The finisher allows up to 4 staples or 2 staples per book after cut. Books are boxed and shipped.n
Benefit: Click charge is half per book since he prints 2 up.

A Konica Minolta Production Print Consultant

 

[kslight]

Someone mentioned the Konica Minolta C6100, which I think is overkill for your volume unless you really just want that speed. Check out the C3070 or C3080 (70 and 80ppm respectively). These duplex up to 350 gsm, and they have vacuum feed paper decks which is great for the heavier and coated stocks. Don't let them talk you into the SD-510 booklet maker though...go for the SD-506 if you just need face trimming, or the SD-513 if you need 3-knife trimming and creasing on the covers to prevent the cracking.

I mentioned the C6100, but with the caveat that yes it is probably too much machine for that volume...and suggested to look at the smaller machines that have the best of the C6100's features trickled down. As I have not personally considered the smaller machines, I wasn't entirely sure the appropriate model.

In any case, I am pretty impressed with the C6100 output and finishing capabilities, if the 3070/3080 are in that ballpark then sounds like a winner for the OP.

 

[lexcreate]

I am jumping on the bandwagon here for advice. I too have to look at a light production printer for our organization (non-profit/inter-governmental). Our lease is up at the end of 2019. We are currently using a SHARP printer. Not entirely happy with the IT support, lack of Fiery (new models include it) and their dodgy conversion to RGB when printing a b&w/spot color job. PDF was clean. Our office printer is a Samsung and our sales rep for that wants to sell us a Toshiba for a production printer. They have e-BRIDGE technology. I am questioning whether that can replace FIERY. I miss FIERY. Is it possible to have an office copier and a production printer in one model? Is there a Canon or a Ricoh dealer/support in the Maritimes, specifically in Nova Scotia? We used to have Konica Minolta. It is overkill for us, I think. Anyone feedback is welcome.