NEED HELP - Fuji PJ plate vs Azura plate
- Thread starter hazzmatte
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SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Hey Murray -
Sure I remember you - I was surprised that yesterday was your first post on this revised forum format.
(Say hi to Tony - if you see him.)
What I find interesting with this thread is that we're comparing apples and oranges. The most parallel comparison would be Azura TS vs. EcoMaxx, or Energy Elite vs. LHPJ. That Azura TS is being compared to LHPJ speaks highly of both.
Regards,
Sure I remember you - I was surprised that yesterday was your first post on this revised forum format.
(Say hi to Tony - if you see him.)
What I find interesting with this thread is that we're comparing apples and oranges. The most parallel comparison would be Azura TS vs. EcoMaxx, or Energy Elite vs. LHPJ. That Azura TS is being compared to LHPJ speaks highly of both.
Regards,
Steve
Steve
Steve:
Don't be suprised - I retired from FUJI a couple of years back and for various reasons, kept a low profile. I really only looked in on the forum, the other day because an old colleague of mine was bugging me to do so.
I could not agree more with your statement of comparing apple to oranges re: the products beeing discussed.
I kind of miss the bantering, back and forth, that we used to do and would like to take this opportunity to tell you that I have allways respected the excellent job you have done in representing AGFA plate products.
I only ever got involved in the forum, in the first place, because I did not agree with FUJI's theory of sitting back and saying nothing. Their products were too good for that.
Best regards:
Murray
Steve
Steve:
Don't be suprised - I retired from FUJI a couple of years back and for various reasons, kept a low profile. I really only looked in on the forum, the other day because an old colleague of mine was bugging me to do so.
I could not agree more with your statement of comparing apple to oranges re: the products beeing discussed.
I kind of miss the bantering, back and forth, that we used to do and would like to take this opportunity to tell you that I have allways respected the excellent job you have done in representing AGFA plate products.
I only ever got involved in the forum, in the first place, because I did not agree with FUJI's theory of sitting back and saying nothing. Their products were too good for that.
Best regards:
Murray
Fuji LH-PJ versus AZURA
Fuji LH-PJ versus AZURA
Note that the LH-PJ has much better resolution (capable of 10 Micron Staccato) and needs only 60% of the energy (or even less) compared with Azura.
For cost and environment questions have a look at John Zarwans report "The environmental impact of a printing plates" (http://www.johnzarwan.com/pubs/environmentplate.pdf).
This speaks for itself.
with kind regards
Fuji LH-PJ versus AZURA
Note that the LH-PJ has much better resolution (capable of 10 Micron Staccato) and needs only 60% of the energy (or even less) compared with Azura.
For cost and environment questions have a look at John Zarwans report "The environmental impact of a printing plates" (http://www.johnzarwan.com/pubs/environmentplate.pdf).
This speaks for itself.
with kind regards
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Dear BS:
As both Murray (ex Fuji) and I both said - this is an apples to oranges comparison.
As we declined to sponsor John's report, there are some assumptions made in error which
could have been caught, had we been an active participant in the study like Fuji and Kodak.
That said, John's work remains of merit, but it is unclear to me how this report relates to this thread.
And, as a courtesy to the forum, it would be in good form to sign your posts reflecting your position at Fuji.
(Or, update your profile).
This speaks for itself.
Regards,
As both Murray (ex Fuji) and I both said - this is an apples to oranges comparison.
As we declined to sponsor John's report, there are some assumptions made in error which
could have been caught, had we been an active participant in the study like Fuji and Kodak.
That said, John's work remains of merit, but it is unclear to me how this report relates to this thread.
And, as a courtesy to the forum, it would be in good form to sign your posts reflecting your position at Fuji.
(Or, update your profile).
This speaks for itself.
Regards,
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To Both the forum and Steve
To Both the forum and Steve
Steve:
This was an honest oversight - hope this clarifys things.
My name iis Murray Billinghurst and I am from Toronto Canada.
I spent 25 years in the pressroom and the next 26 years as both a tech-rep and national technical manager for Fuji Graphic Systems Canada (formerly McCutcheon Graphics.
I retired a few years ago and do not keep in touch with my former employer, with the exception of a select few. The reason being that I do not wish to interfere in their business.
It would be fair to say that I am probably biased towards Fuji products - after all I contributed a lot of hours towards the establishment of their plate products on the Canadian market.
This does not mean that I am closed minded to the competetive products. It only means that I have a better understanding of Fuji plates and their application than most.
I think that Steve possibly remembers me stating. to this forum, on more than one occasion -" you should not bad-mouth the competition, because most all of the manufacturers plates work quite well "if" they are placed under the proper conditions."
To Both the forum and Steve
Steve:
This was an honest oversight - hope this clarifys things.
My name iis Murray Billinghurst and I am from Toronto Canada.
I spent 25 years in the pressroom and the next 26 years as both a tech-rep and national technical manager for Fuji Graphic Systems Canada (formerly McCutcheon Graphics.
I retired a few years ago and do not keep in touch with my former employer, with the exception of a select few. The reason being that I do not wish to interfere in their business.
It would be fair to say that I am probably biased towards Fuji products - after all I contributed a lot of hours towards the establishment of their plate products on the Canadian market.
This does not mean that I am closed minded to the competetive products. It only means that I have a better understanding of Fuji plates and their application than most.
I think that Steve possibly remembers me stating. to this forum, on more than one occasion -" you should not bad-mouth the competition, because most all of the manufacturers plates work quite well "if" they are placed under the proper conditions."
STEVE:
Sorry for the misinterperation!
Thanks for the kind words (I think).
Best regards:
Murray
Fuji vs. Azura
Fuji vs. Azura
As stated by most on this forum, I believe Azura to be a fine product, however many things go into our decision, we were already with Fuji and like our rep and he is located in our city. Nearest Agfa rep is 100 miles away I believe. We got several contacts for people using Azura but the closest was 2 hours away. The nearest Heidelberg rep was 5 hours away also I think. No doubt that Azura is the greenest solution. One thing that gave us pause is Heidelberg told us our Screen 6600E platesetter would require an ablation kit for the Saphira plate. I don't recall ever seeing that mentioned anywhere before. Also the problems we experienced with the Ecomaxx have kind of soured us on this technology. That just means for whatever the reasons it didn't fit on our press with our papers and inks and habits, I'm sure there's people who run it without problems daily. So local contact, proven track record, lower power, longer runs, higher resolution, all played a part in us staying with Fuji but switching to the PJ.
Fuji vs. Azura
As stated by most on this forum, I believe Azura to be a fine product, however many things go into our decision, we were already with Fuji and like our rep and he is located in our city. Nearest Agfa rep is 100 miles away I believe. We got several contacts for people using Azura but the closest was 2 hours away. The nearest Heidelberg rep was 5 hours away also I think. No doubt that Azura is the greenest solution. One thing that gave us pause is Heidelberg told us our Screen 6600E platesetter would require an ablation kit for the Saphira plate. I don't recall ever seeing that mentioned anywhere before. Also the problems we experienced with the Ecomaxx have kind of soured us on this technology. That just means for whatever the reasons it didn't fit on our press with our papers and inks and habits, I'm sure there's people who run it without problems daily. So local contact, proven track record, lower power, longer runs, higher resolution, all played a part in us staying with Fuji but switching to the PJ.
Preper:
Your reasoning is very sound.
As I have stated before - the plates you use must be the right ones for YOUR application. Some types of plates, though they work well under certain conditions, are not suitable under other conditions.
Allways use what is best for your own printing conditions and what you are most comfortable with.
Murray Billinghurst
Your reasoning is very sound.
As I have stated before - the plates you use must be the right ones for YOUR application. Some types of plates, though they work well under certain conditions, are not suitable under other conditions.
Allways use what is best for your own printing conditions and what you are most comfortable with.
Murray Billinghurst
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Prepper:
No worries... there are many factors which contribute to a best fit decision.
Ironically, Azura's the closest thing we have in platemaking to that popular claim:
"Just set it, and forget it!"
I certainly understand your reluctance after having difficulties with an on-press clean-out plate.
That's why we prefer to call (and coincidentally Zarwan classifies) Azura as a "chem-free", rather
than a "processless" plate.
I admire your loyalty.
Regards,
No worries... there are many factors which contribute to a best fit decision.
Ironically, Azura's the closest thing we have in platemaking to that popular claim:
"Just set it, and forget it!"
I certainly understand your reluctance after having difficulties with an on-press clean-out plate.
That's why we prefer to call (and coincidentally Zarwan classifies) Azura as a "chem-free", rather
than a "processless" plate.
I admire your loyalty.
Regards,
This entire thread is comparing the Fuji process plate LHPJ against Agfa's so called processless plate that uses a processor. Of course you will have less chemistry usage. Perhaps you should compare it against the Fuji Processless Ecomaxx T which uses no chemistry or processor at all. That would make it a little fairer on the chemistry side of things. Just trying to keep apples to apples not apples to oranges.
Londonbob
You got it right!
LHPJ is capable of much higher quality printing (actually better than most know) but is of a different technology than the AGFA product and therefor there is no comparison.
Comparing Fuji,s chem. free to AGFA's product makes more sense.
As I stated earlier - "Choose the right plate for your application", and certainly if your application requires high quality and-or long runs LHPJ should be the right choice.
Your sign on moniker makes me wonder if we have met in the past?
Murray Billinghurst
You got it right!
LHPJ is capable of much higher quality printing (actually better than most know) but is of a different technology than the AGFA product and therefor there is no comparison.
Comparing Fuji,s chem. free to AGFA's product makes more sense.
As I stated earlier - "Choose the right plate for your application", and certainly if your application requires high quality and-or long runs LHPJ should be the right choice.
Your sign on moniker makes me wonder if we have met in the past?
Murray Billinghurst
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
londonbob.
We prefer to call Azura "chem-free", to denote the difference to "processless" plates which clean-out on press. Even this clean-out on press has a process, as there are several variables before and on press. Part of the goal is to drive-out as many variables as possible, and the Azura system has done just that.
But to Murray's point - this seems to have been a discussion about a distribution channel for Prepper rather than technology. The apples to apples comparison would be Energy Elite to LHPJ - both fine plates. In fact, I've recently completed some significant conversions, not because LHPJ is not a good plate, but because Elite provided enough process improvement for the customers to warrant the effort to change. I'm sure there are stories to the converse as well... again LHPJ to Elite - both good plates.
What's interesting about this apples to oranges comparison, as Murray sez, is finding the best fit for the customer. One can easily read specs off of a data sheet, and claim one plate better than the other, but we're finding more and more best fit with Azura. Yes, I've even replaced LHPJ with Azura at high quality shops. The point is, Azura is migrating "up-market", not based on marketing, but based on market success.
Regards,
We prefer to call Azura "chem-free", to denote the difference to "processless" plates which clean-out on press. Even this clean-out on press has a process, as there are several variables before and on press. Part of the goal is to drive-out as many variables as possible, and the Azura system has done just that.
But to Murray's point - this seems to have been a discussion about a distribution channel for Prepper rather than technology. The apples to apples comparison would be Energy Elite to LHPJ - both fine plates. In fact, I've recently completed some significant conversions, not because LHPJ is not a good plate, but because Elite provided enough process improvement for the customers to warrant the effort to change. I'm sure there are stories to the converse as well... again LHPJ to Elite - both good plates.
What's interesting about this apples to oranges comparison, as Murray sez, is finding the best fit for the customer. One can easily read specs off of a data sheet, and claim one plate better than the other, but we're finding more and more best fit with Azura. Yes, I've even replaced LHPJ with Azura at high quality shops. The point is, Azura is migrating "up-market", not based on marketing, but based on market success.
Regards,
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Steve:
Just to be clear - Quality is quite often subjective. when I refer to quality, 2-98% resolution will not cut the mustard.
This is not a reflection on the AGFA product it is only a clarification of where I am comming from. When you talk about replacing LH-PJ with AZURA in quality shops then I would have to question your interpretation of quality versus my interpretation of quality.
Best regards:
Murray
Just to be clear - Quality is quite often subjective. when I refer to quality, 2-98% resolution will not cut the mustard.
This is not a reflection on the AGFA product it is only a clarification of where I am comming from. When you talk about replacing LH-PJ with AZURA in quality shops then I would have to question your interpretation of quality versus my interpretation of quality.
Best regards:
Murray
SteveAgfa
Well-known member
Hi Murray.
Again - too many evaluations are based off of a spec sheet.
As you know, often times a spec sheet covers the lowest common denominator. We've had shops do exclusively 20 micron FM screening with Azura. While the spec sheet doesn't rate Azura as such, but, given a run length of 50,000 for FM, users do it daily.
Then again, one of our early 20 micron FM/Azura users has since switched to Sublima, due to its smoother flat tints. I believe he's doing 280 line, although the product is spec'd for 240. After all, each of these screenings have the same size minimum dot - a 21 micron 2x2 pixel dot.
While the subject of this thread might not be an apples to apples comparison, it's great to see Azura openly compared to high quality chemistry-based thermal plates. This illustrates that Azura is breaking out of the genre, and into the mainstream.
Regards,
Again - too many evaluations are based off of a spec sheet.
As you know, often times a spec sheet covers the lowest common denominator. We've had shops do exclusively 20 micron FM screening with Azura. While the spec sheet doesn't rate Azura as such, but, given a run length of 50,000 for FM, users do it daily.
Then again, one of our early 20 micron FM/Azura users has since switched to Sublima, due to its smoother flat tints. I believe he's doing 280 line, although the product is spec'd for 240. After all, each of these screenings have the same size minimum dot - a 21 micron 2x2 pixel dot.
While the subject of this thread might not be an apples to apples comparison, it's great to see Azura openly compared to high quality chemistry-based thermal plates. This illustrates that Azura is breaking out of the genre, and into the mainstream.
Regards,
Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
My Decision !
My Decision !
Gentlemen,
I will stay with the "Solnhofen Stone "
Regards, Alois
My Decision !
Gentlemen,
I will stay with the "Solnhofen Stone "
Regards, Alois
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Alois Senefelder
Well-known member
Enlightenment !!!!!!!!
Enlightenment !!!!!!!!
Hello Steve.
Historical enlightenment, which I'm sure you will find interesting, I enclose PDFs, read from the Heading: DIRECT ROTARY MACHINES - page 10
Regards, Alois
Enlightenment !!!!!!!!
Hello Steve.
Historical enlightenment, which I'm sure you will find interesting, I enclose PDFs, read from the Heading: DIRECT ROTARY MACHINES - page 10
Regards, Alois
Last edited:
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