Need help in this situation

[bbchowda]

Hi all,

I am in need in some advice as I am in a situation with my copier dealer. I recently signed a lease for two Ricoh machines - 5310S and 7200 this past April. I signed it with the agreement that the click rate is locked for the entire 5 year lease. Today the dealer wants to change the click rate since they say my toner usage outweighs their toner costs. Would they be breaching this contract? And if they do - can I tell them to take the machine away without paying for the rest of the lease?

 

[pippip]

Check your contract for toner usage limits. Not familiar with Ricoh, I wonder does it have logs of how much toner has been used versus clicks?

Is this only on one machine or both they want to increase the click?

 

[kslight]

Check your contract…third party I’m guessing? We bought our 7210 direct, it does not have any stipulation, and our clicks are locked for the 5 year term.

 

[TJPrinter]

I had something like this in my Xerox contracts. It bothered me but they never charged for excessive use of toner. It was explained to me that there are some unscrupulous users out there that sell the toner that they get on their service contract.

You’ll have to read the contract carefully to see if it’s there, but normally it would say something like extra charge for excessive toner usage. So they would have to let you know how much overage of toner you used and bill you for the extra toner. Something like 30,000 clicks at your contract click rate plus the cost of the toner overage.

If there isn’t anything in your contract, then you can let them know they can either figure out a way to make it work or your attorney will be contacting them. But seriously, is every single job you run full coverage? If not, you’re not doing anything different than any other print service provider. Then there’s the question, how do you know there isn’t something off with the two machines that is causing them to put down more toner than they should.

 

[gregbatch]

What are your current click rates?

 

[bbchowda]

Check your contract for toner usage limits. Not familiar with Ricoh, I wonder does it have logs of how much toner has been used versus clicks?

Is this only on one machine or both they want to increase the click?

The contract has it down as unlimited toner usage. They want to increase the click charge.

 

[bbchowda]

Check your contract…third party I’m guessing? We bought our 7210 direct, it does not have any stipulation, and our clicks are locked for the 5 year term.

It was through a third party as despite wanting to work directly with Ricoh. My clicks was supposed to be locked for 5 years per the VP of Sales initials on the contract.

 

[bbchowda]

I had something like this in my Xerox contracts. It bothered me but they never charged for excessive use of toner. It was explained to me that there are some unscrupulous users out there that sell the toner that they get on their service contract.

You’ll have to read the contract carefully to see if it’s there, but normally it would say something like extra charge for excessive toner usage. So they would have to let you know how much overage of toner you used and bill you for the extra toner. Something like 30,000 clicks at your contract click rate plus the cost of the toner overage.

If there isn’t anything in your contract, then you can let them know they can either figure out a way to make it work or your attorney will be contacting them. But seriously, is every single job you run full coverage? If not, you’re not doing anything different than any other print service provider. Then there’s the question, how do you know there isn’t something off with the two machines that is causing them to put down more toner than they should.

The jobs that I currently run would be between 30% - 50% of ink coverage. The machines has been in and out of service since its' installment. One time we would put in a brand new waste container and it fills up within 4 days. After that one gets replaced, we won't change that for 2 weeks. Running nearly the nearly identical books - 12 pp self cover books @ 5,150 sheets of 12 x 18 - double sided mostly black text with small amount of color - per signature. 50 different books on 60# uncoated text.

 

[bbchowda]

What are your current click rates?

my color click is at 0.042 and B&W is at 0.0045. I suspect that since I use a lot more of the B&W toners for most of my jobs - they are not making the money for the black toners.

 

[Shawnd]

That is one of the lower Black clicks I have seen, I am guessing they did not do a proper analysis of your print mix, your Color click is a tad bit high, this is based on the 7200.

What are they wanting to up it to?

 

[TJPrinter]

my color click is at 0.042 and B&W is at 0.0045. I suspect that since I use a lot more of the B&W toners for most of my jobs - they are not making the money for the black toners.

My guess is that they messed up on the pricing for the black. On a color machine it would fall somewhere around .007-.009 - .0045 is more like a black only machine click rate. .042 is not bad but it seems most people are under .04 but with prices going up maybe that's where things are headed.

You may not be happy with them changing the pricing since it was their mistake but it's not unreasonable to go up to .007-.009 on the black. I wouldn't give them any room to move on the color.

 

[pippip]

The contract has it down as unlimited toner usage. They want to increase the click charge.

If that's the case I'd just tell them sorry, contract is a contract. I'm sure if the mistake was in the other direction that's what they'd be saying to you.

 

[gregbatch]

My guess is that they messed up on the pricing for the black. On a color machine it would fall somewhere around .007-.009 - .0045 is more like a black only machine click rate. .042 is not bad but it seems most people are under .04 but with prices going up maybe that's where things are headed.

You may not be happy with them changing the pricing since it was their mistake but it's not unreasonable to go up to .007-.009 on the black. I wouldn't give them any room to move on the color.

Agreed. Color is a little high. We're at .008 for BW on our color machine. A hair above 3 for color clicks. Try to compromise. You want a dealer that is eager to support you. You won't get that if they are losing money on you. Maybe they will be under .007, but I would try to hold them at no more than .007 for as long as you can. If they want more, try to step it over a few years.

 

[ReproElectroProspero]

We just finished closing a contract for new Ricoh's to be delivered Q1 of 2024.

We're getting a Ricoh Pro 8320 (BW) and a Ricoh Pro C7200X (Color). Our bw click charge will be $0.0035 and our color click charge is $0.0325.

Just adding a data point.

 

[gregbatch]

We just finished closing a contract for new Ricoh's to be delivered Q1 of 2024.

We're getting a Ricoh Pro 8320 (BW) and a Ricoh Pro C7200X (Color). Our bw click charge will be $0.0035 and our color click charge is $0.0325.

Just adding a data point.

What is your BW click on the 7200?