New Owner, new equipment

[SlvrBlltDwgPnd]

Hello Again Everyone,

I received a lot of good feedback from the forum when I posted a couple months back. I am hoping to again solicit some opinions from the group now that I have a better understanding of some things and direction I am heading. I currently have 4 canon machines in house C7010, C7000, C650 and 9075. The C7000 is no longer viable even though it has relatively low clicks (4MM versus the 9075 that has over 10MM). GF says they cannot make it work due to parts not being available on the machine. They have since loaned me the C650 as a stop gap. I am looking now into leasing either the Canon V1000, RicohC7210X GA or the Ricoh C9200. I have been quoted the following, curious to see what your thoughts are. Currently, all the machines I have are on contract with GF at a click rate of .045 Color and .0085 b & w. This was inherited from the previous owners.

The new lease agreements (this is first pass from salesman) are as follows:

ImagePRESS V1000:

click rates: .0075 b & w $.029 color with $.015/$.058 for long sheet up to 51"
lease payment: $2500/mo 60 month lease.

Ricoh Pro C7210X GA

click rates: .0045 b & w $.029 color with $.009/$.058 for long sheet up to 51"
lease payment: $2189.00 month lease.

Canon ImagePRESS C9010VP
click rates: .0085 b & w $.039 color with $.017/$.078 for long sheet up to 51"
lease payment: $3218 60 month lease.

I don't have pricing on the C9200 Ricoh yet.

I am 9 months into the printing business. I am asking for any advice on these prices as I am losing sleep over the investment. In my first post everyone was very helpful, especially @TJPrinter. His advice to look into a new lease is how I got here. Please, fire away, let me know anything I need to ask for or push back on. Also, I have read other threads, if someone can explain the $1 buyout or buyout options/lease rates I should ask for that would be great. Of course, the sales guy didn't mention a thing about those.

Regardless of the advice I get, I will push my salesman at GF to sharpen his pencil and I have appointments tomorrow and Monday with Canon Corporate and Ricoh corporate. I will get more quotes if that is advised.

Thank you all again in advance!

 

[SoggyWinter]

Have an attorney review the lease and service contracts to see if there are any "gotchas" that aren't apparent, to help you understand leasing terms like true lease, secured finance lease, etc.

What region are you in?

 

[jwheeler]

@SlvrBlltDwgPnd , I used to sell production gear for KM. I can help you with the two lease options.

1. The $1 Buyout is the easiest to understand in that you own the machine at the end of the financing period - therefore, the payments will be a bit higher.
2. The 2nd option is a "Fair Market Value" or FMV option. This is the one most sales reps will present to you since it's a lower monthly payment (and it keeps you in an eternal cycle of upgrading machines with them). The benefit is the lower payment and keeping up with technology. The downside to this is you do not own the machine at the end of the financing period. You can either give it back and sign a new lease on a new machine, or you can purchase the old machine outright. If you opt to purchase it at the end of the financing, you will be presented with a price. This will really vary depending on how many impressions you did on the machine and how current the model is. For example, if you do a 36mo lease, the cost to purchase at the end will likely be higher than if you do a 60mo lease.

And yes...always get more quotes. I know it takes time out of your busy schedule and it's not fun to go through the demos and pricing meetings, but having multiple quotes from multiple sources gives you ammo to negotiate with the vendor you really want to go with. You might also discover a new software or finishing option that can automate some tasks your team is doing manually. Be sure to bring your own files to the demos - don't rely on the perfect files they use in the demo room.

Lastly, check the maintenance contracts to ensure that those click rates are "single click" (meaning it's the same for 8.5x11 as it is for 12x18). Verify that they are locked for the term of the lease. Many click rate contracts will only be locked for the first 3 years by default, and can go up by any amount years 4 and beyond.

 

[msaeger]

Check if the click charges are fixed for the term of the lease.

Doesn't dollar buyout just mean at the end of the lease you can buy the machine for a dollar?

 

[kdw75]

Hello Again Everyone,

I received a lot of good feedback from the forum when I posted a couple months back. I am hoping to again solicit some opinions from the group now that I have a better understanding of some things and direction I am heading. I currently have 4 canon machines in house C7010, C7000, C650 and 9075. The C7000 is no longer viable even though it has relatively low clicks (4MM versus the 9075 that has over 10MM). GF says they cannot make it work due to parts not being available on the machine. They have since loaned me the C650 as a stop gap. I am looking now into leasing either the Canon V1000, RicohC7210X GA or the Ricoh C9200. I have been quoted the following, curious to see what your thoughts are. Currently, all the machines I have are on contract with GF at a click rate of .045 Color and .0085 b & w. This was inherited from the previous owners.

The new lease agreements (this is first pass from salesman) are as follows:

ImagePRESS V1000:

click rates: .0075 b & w $.029 color with $.015/$.058 for long sheet up to 51"
lease payment: $2500/mo 60 month lease.

Ricoh Pro C7210X GA

click rates: .0045 b & w $.029 color with $.009/$.058 for long sheet up to 51"
lease payment: $2189.00 month lease.

Canon ImagePRESS C9010VP
click rates: .0085 b & w $.039 color with $.017/$.078 for long sheet up to 51"
lease payment: $3218 60 month lease.

I don't have pricing on the C9200 Ricoh yet.

I am 9 months into the printing business. I am asking for any advice on these prices as I am losing sleep over the investment. In my first post everyone was very helpful, especially @TJPrinter. His advice to look into a new lease is how I got here. Please, fire away, let me know anything I need to ask for or push back on. Also, I have read other threads, if someone can explain the $1 buyout or buyout options/lease rates I should ask for that would be great. Of course, the sales guy didn't mention a thing about those.

Regardless of the advice I get, I will push my salesman at GF to sharpen his pencil and I have appointments tomorrow and Monday with Canon Corporate and Ricoh corporate. I will get more quotes if that is advised.

Thank you all again in advance!

I wish we had those click rates. We have a 7210X that we are 3 years into and our click rates are .009 for B&W and .038 for color. I guess inflation hasn't hit the digital press market yet.

 

[chriscozi]

I wish we had those click rates. We have a 7210X that we are 3 years into and our click rates are .009 for B&W and .038 for color. I guess inflation hasn't hit the digital press market yet.

The manufacturers are hungry right now.

Really make sure you understand the lease terms.
And MOST leases have no 'lemon' clauses. You will be stuck for the total lease even if you never use the machine. (sigh)
Confirm the rates on service and software. Service as a line item should be in the quote.
IF the software (EFI) is included in the lease make sure the language calls for updates. They are notoriously vague and you will pay real money or suffer without upgrades.
Anything NOT in the lease should have caps or limits on increases.
Did I say 'Anything NOT in the lease should have caps or limits on increases.'
YMMV.

 

[TJPrinter]

I can’t speak for the lease amounts for Canon or Ricoh because I don’t have the knowledge like someone else here may on these two but I can say that your click/service charges are very encouraging if they both include a fixed rate for the term of the lease. Like others are saying, read your contracts over VERY carefully and have someone else read it if you don’t have an attorney to help with it. Be certain that the click rate is a fixed rate for the entire term of the lease and it’s for 13x19 sizes. Also make sure they aren’t going to charge you a minimum usage fee (25,000 clicks or something like that).

Sorry if I repeat what I may have said in the past but I’m from the camp of leasing technology that has a somewhat limited lifespan. I lease my Xerox Versant and replace it at the end of each lease term but everything else in the shop I own. This may not be the case for someone running a black only machine since it’s not as likely to see as many improvements over a 5 year lease and the service will not be as extensive as color would be. So a $1 buyout could work out better for a black only machine. If you’ll be pushing the limits on the duty cycle I wouldn’t recommend planning to keep it around past the lease.

The $1 buyout lease is more of a loan than a lease because you’re taking possession of the equipment at the end of the lease. With the FMV lease you’re not taking possession, you’ll either return it, continue to pay the lease past your original lease expiration date or buy it for the fair market value that they offer you. Both the $1 buyout and FMV lease would require you to renegotiate your service contract at the end of the lease date. There are also tax differences between the two leases but I’d recommend getting that advice from an accountant.

If something should go seriously sideways after the new equipment has been installed, whatever you do, do not make a lease payment. No one wants to go through the hassle of getting a piece of equipment removed that isn’t performing as verbally promised so get a copy of the CED (customer expectation document) read it and make sure it meets all your requirements. Please don’t let the excitement of the new equipment cloud your judgment into believing what sales tells you is the truth.

Let us know how it all turns out. Good luck!

 

[kslight]

I have a 7210x. The BW click rate you show is lower than I’ve ever seen on a machine like this, and your color click rate is also a touch lower than mine. Our click rates are locked for the term. But your lease payment is about 30% higher, not sure what all you have configured on it. Fwiw, did not do the super long banner option, instead I did the banner vacuum feed tray, which allows up to a 28” sheet, because it will support a wider range of paper and will probably perform better. Depends on if you have an application that requires that long of a sheet, though. 28” is plenty for me, I’ve only actually used that feature once so far.



Our machine was installed at the end of March, and it is so much more reliable and less quirky than the KM it replaced. I have had about two service calls so far, with over 400k total impressions.

 

[SoggyWinter]

Have you received pricing for the Ricoh 9200?
Also, what configuration are you quoting (ie, feeding trays and finishing modules)?

 

[Mike the Print Man]

Those click rates are really good. The c9200 we had at my last company was leased in 2020 and our rates were $0.008 for b/w and $0.033 for color, but that was a few years back. I cannot remember what our exact cost was on service agreement, but I believe it was around $2,500 a month. Ours had one LCT, banner sheet feeder and the Plockmatic 350 go along with a Fiery RIP. Our lease was through Heidelberg as a Versafire EP.