NO jobs in prepress ?

[aqazi81]

"Working with Esko solutions, over 20 years we decreased 85% of our prepress work force while doubling our output. The result is reduced time to market."
- Hugh Farrell, Prepress Manager, North State Flexibles LLC. (USA)

Does it mean, 85% of the prepress guys are jobless now?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Some of the 85% may have moved on to other roles in the same company, or have been forced to move to other companies that were not as progressive and require more staff. I doubt that there are enough companies around to absorb those that have left in their previous prepress roles (even more so in packaging). The goal of a company to make profit and the goal of an employee to have a job may not always be aligned to each other.

It is not just Esko, but all vendors offering automation. Look how many operators are required today compared to years gone by. Look at what PDF workflow tools and other automation tools are doing to workflows, in prepress and beyond.

If one wishes to continue to be employed in “prepress” in a large company, one has to figure out how to be part of the 15% club. That club is probably getting smaller as time moves on.


Stephen Marsh

 

[PDL]

The loss of anyone’s livelihood is a sad thing to witness to. Especially when like in prepress it’s not only jobs that are lost but the craft and skills that the new technologies replace.
I tend to think in terms of the rise of the internal combustion engine and it’s effect on the existing industries at the time. Horse power and all the industries that supported that, blacksmiths, wagon and buggy makers, harness makers, breeders, etc., took a serious hit. The smart blacksmith opened a engine repair shop. Even bicycle shops, a very popular mode of transportation at the time, greatly decreased in number (I am thinking of the Wright brothers here) but the inventive amongst them changed gears - yes to the pun - and did things like, well, fly. It can happen.

 

[DCurry]

I would think a large portion of the 85% were people like strippers and proof/plate makers - all of that is done digitally now, often by the main prepress person. It's not specific to Esko, though - I would think that any modern workflow can make a similar claim.

When I started at my first shop, there were 3 scanner operators, 9 prepress ops (spanning 2 shifts), and 2 stripper/platers. 9 years later the same shop had 2 prepress ops on 1 shift, and the one remaining scanner operator ran our digital camera studio and a small digital press. We fed more presses and produced more work with those 3 people than we had with the full staff a decade prior. Some of the workers were dead weight all along, but mostly the improved efficiency came from technology advancements like faster computers, better RIPs and the implementation of CTP and inkjet proofers.

5 years after that the shop closed down, and they were one of the shops that managed to hang around longer than most around here.

 

[mattbeals]

With the automation projects I did, I never (to the best of my knowledge) automated someone out of a job. They could add volume through the updated systems. They could shift roles. But I am unaware of anyone losing their job because of my work.

 

[gordo]

With the automation projects I did, I never (to the best of my knowledge) automated someone out of a job. They could add volume through the updated systems. They could shift roles. But I am unaware of anyone losing their job because of my work.

They didn't want to upset you. ;-)

I did some pressroom training at a daily newspaper and over the past 5 or so years - through workflow automation - they've effectively eliminated their prepress dept personnel (including image processing/optimizing folks). Their IT dept (one guy) is responsible for contacting their CtP vendor if there's an issue with a platesetter that he can't deal with. Everything is automated other than the couple of designers who lay out the news articles.

They are now considering eliminating their photographer staff and having the news reporters take any needed photos and videos instead. This is IMHO a growing trend.

Personally I think that everyone that sits between the document creator and the press will eventually be eliminated - disintermediation is a key goal of document creators. In 1985 I used the metaphor of the Apple laser writer and the MAC as the future of the printshop. It took nearly 20 years for this model to become a reality for many shops and it will still take years for this workflow to be the normal/standard workflow but I have no doubt that this will happen.
As digital press installations continue and as conventional presses age and are retired I believe that there will be less and less need for skilled dedicated press operators - just as I don't need one, or need to be one, to get prints from my desktop inkjet.

 

[chevalier]

I think that everyone that sits between the document creator and the press will eventually be eliminated - disintermediation is a key goal of document creators. In 1985 I used the metaphor of the Apple laser writer and the MAC as the future of the printshop. It took nearly 20 years for this model to become a reality for many shops and it will still take years for this workflow to be the normal/standard workflow but I have no doubt that this will happen.
As digital press installations continue and as conventional presses age and are retired I believe that there will be less and less need for skilled dedicated press operators - just as I don't need one, or need to be one, to get prints from my desktop inkjet.

I whole heartedly agree with you. People look at me like I'm nuts when I say it but the reality of this happening is not far off at all. The need for the expertise is rapidly disappearing and what expertise that is still required is being shifted to estimating and customer service. The job ticket or work order has become a set of instructions for machines and software to do things automatically and will only continue to accelerate.

On another note speaking broadly:
Throughout my career so far I've certainly automated more than one person out of jobs. It wasn't personal and I did my best to make it clear that their function was quickly becoming redundant and eventually would be altogether obsolete. Many of them were shifted around typically to estimating or expediting ("scheduling"). Some had no other skills and most were offered a different position at market wages (not their current wage) in bindery. The people that tend to suffer the most are layout/imposition, stripping, CtP operation, color specialists and the *sarcasm* all important supervisor/manager */sarcasm*. The supervisors/managers always seem to think that they are untouchable, are generally the least savvy, are less willing or unwilling to learn and are usually unwilling to take on and I quote "menial tasks". Generally they are shocked when they are demoted or let go because a 3-5 man team does not need a department manager. Those management tasks are typically handed off to the customer service manager, pressroom manager or in some cases just handed off to the operations manager.

 

[gig0]

automation is great when you have a linear workflow for printing the same thing over and over again, however, don't underestimate the power of office secretaries building a 3 panel pocket folder in Powerpoint. Not everybody prints in a static environment.

 

[chevalier]

automation is great when you have a linear workflow for printing the same thing over and over again, however, don't underestimate the power of office secretaries building a 3 panel pocket folder in Powerpoint. Not everybody prints in a static environment.

I started in paste up and taking on projects like those described. It's hard to believe that people are still able to do this kind of print work and make money. Even a lot of the smaller (what I now describe as boutique) shops that I know will not accept your Powerpoint file as a pocket folder. It's either design correctly (templates provided), pay for it to be recreated or take your business elsewhere.

I know of shops where this kind of work is literally farmed out to design agency on silent contract. It's cheaper to charge the client and pay a vendor to take ownership of this role then to pay and support people on staff. Where I am employed we won't even middle-man this stuff. We recommend these type of clients to a specific design agency where we have a great working relationship. The agency even gives us a referral fee if work materializes. Effectively we turned a loss center into a profit center.

 

[gig0]

here's the big surprise; theres many of us out there willing to fix crappy files. Yes, the end user gets charged and we make a profit. Still don't have this mythical one-size-fits-all automated workflow, unless we're printing to the same ol' 19x 25 format. That was my point. We don't all print to the same constraints and thats where automation becomes irrelevant....at least for now.

 

[gordo]

here's the big surprise; theres many of us out there willing to fix crappy files. Yes, the end user gets charged and we make a profit. Still don't have this mythical one-size-fits-all automated workflow, unless we're printing to the same ol' 19x 25 format. That was my point. We don't all print to the same constraints and thats where automation becomes irrelevant....at least for now.

The problem you point out is not an automation problem - it's a workflow communication problem.

You may decide to "fix" what you believe to be "crappy files." Others don't - they publish their file acceptance criteria and accept what they're given and either let it fail, reject it, or offer to prepare it as required for output.
In many ways all shops print to the same constraints - they just don't seem to know how to effectively communicate those constraints to their customers.

 

[gig0]

Oh, there's no communication problem!

Us: "So your Powerpoint guru doesn't know how to build a dieline or spot colors for your interesting pocket folder? That'll be $XXX to put lipstick on your pig."

Them: "Ok"


Sorry, not all of us are RR Donnelley.

 

[chevalier]

here's the big surprise; theres many of us out there willing to fix crappy files. Yes, the end user gets charged and we make a profit. Still don't have this mythical one-size-fits-all automated workflow, unless we're printing to the same ol' 19x 25 format. That was my point. We don't all print to the same constraints and thats where automation becomes irrelevant....at least for now.

I work in a true job shop where every order is unique. I worked very hard to purge the term "repeat order" form our facility. Every order gets re-estimated every time - even if there is an established price list with the customer. An item can repeat but the materials allocated, the processes involved are continuously improved. This is a critical part of survival in our dog-eat-dog industry.

The problem you point out is not an automation problem - it's a workflow communication problem.

You may decide to "fix" what you believe to be "crappy files." Others don't - they publish their file acceptance criteria and accept what they're given and either let it fail, reject it, or offer to prepare it as required for output.
In many ways all shops print to the same constraints - they just don't seem to know how to effectively communicate those constraints to their customers.

To add on to this... I've encountered a growing number of customers who are extremely price sensitive. The quoted price is the price. We had a rough go of it for a while until we implemented procedures like those above. Most of customers have adapted and improved the files being provided meeting our constraints. It was not an overnight success.

Oh, there's no communication problem!

Us: "So your Powerpoint guru doesn't know how to build a dieline or spot colors for your interesting pocket folder? That'll be $XXX to put lipstick on your pig."

Them: "Ok"


Sorry, not all of us are RR Donnelley.

They are a client of mine and let's just say that they are not providing files better than your typical design firm.

I can't speak for gordo but what I am talking about is the near future. We (my company) are already moving in this direction. I do not work for a 100 million dollar behemoth of a company. We are family owned (4th generation) with only one plant. We do usually make a reasonable profit in an industry with shrinking margins that optimistically forecasted ~3% growth over the next 10 years. I don't want to make it sound like a bed of roses because it isn't.

 

[gig0]

I work in a true job shop where every order is unique. I worked very hard to purge the term "repeat order" form our facility. Every order gets re-estimated every time - even if there is an established price list with the customer. An item can repeat but the materials allocated, the processes involved are continuously improved. This is a critical part of survival in our dog-eat-dog industry.

I'm not that familiar with the front end of the printing business but find your comment about exact repeats interesting because we do so many. Can you expand on that? I understand the aspect of not gouging the customer and staying competitive but as processes evolve and material costs fluctuate, wouldn't this be reflected in the MIS that automatically generates the job ticket? Yeah, customer service blah, blah, blah, but how does making a mountain out of a mole hill streamline the operation and remain profitable when it comes to repeats? Repeats is where the money is at, right? I don't get it.

They are a client of mine and let's just say that they are not providing files better than your typical design firm.

Which describes maybe about 30% of our workflow. I should've prefaced this conversation with saying our primary base is dealing with print brokers and other printers (rejects). I keep forgetting we're different than most other shops that have only one or two presses. Having 8 different presses and only 6 plate trays for two different imaging devices certainly adds excitement to the automation process! And quite a few of our big accounts are for global organizations that outsource design work to low paying locations like India & Antarctica. Those files are the best, no matter how much you try to educate them.... in any language.

 

[gig0]

Everything is automated other than the couple of designers who lay out the news articles.

Gordo, that's prepress

 

[chevalier]

I'm not that familiar with the front end of the printing business but find your comment about exact repeats interesting because we do so many. Can you expand on that? I understand the aspect of not gouging the customer and staying competitive but as processes evolve and material costs fluctuate, wouldn't this be reflected in the MIS that automatically generates the job ticket? Yeah, customer service blah, blah, blah, but how does making a mountain out of a mole hill streamline the operation and remain profitable when it comes to repeats? Repeats is where the money is at, right? I don't get it.

This is off topic of the main thread but here goes.

Here's why a job never truly repeats:
The variability of the materials (paper, ink, etc.) in both quality and price is part one. We track every little detail end to end and can audit an order all the way back to the roll of paper, the batch of ink, etc. We're actively looking at inkjet printers that tag our cartons on our folder gluers so that we even know what time and sequence each specific carton was ran.

Part two is the condition of the equipment and what equipment it runs on. Just because you ran it on your XL105 last run doesn't mean you won't run it on your KBA this time. We setup each piece of equipment with it's own BHR based on a myriad of factors. Because of this the sales price can become independent of the production order costs. It's hard to wrap your head around but it works and works well. This is where repeat production of the same item/sku/product can become more or less profitable based on materials and how it routes through the plant. Unless everything is the same it's not a repeat hence why the term has been purged.

The only real chance an exact repeat has is if the customer literally ordered immediate back to back orders of the same item, same quantity and the same lots of materials and routing were utilized to harness efficiencies. In reality the order would probably just be modified for a higher quantity unless the work was already partially completed.

 

[Possumgal]

There are also many of us out there willing to fix crappy files. No, the end user doesn't get charged. How much profit do we make? Who knows, we're desperate for work.

 

[gig0]

This is off topic of the main thread but here goes.

Here's why a job never truly repeats:
The variability of the materials (paper, ink, etc.) in both quality and price is part one. We track every little detail end to end and can audit an order all the way back to the roll of paper, the batch of ink, etc. We're actively looking at inkjet printers that tag our cartons on our folder gluers so that we even know what time and sequence each specific carton was ran.

Part two is the condition of the equipment and what equipment it runs on. Just because you ran it on your XL105 last run doesn't mean you won't run it on your KBA this time. We setup each piece of equipment with it's own BHR based on a myriad of factors. Because of this the sales price can become independent of the production order costs. It's hard to wrap your head around but it works and works well. This is where repeat production of the same item/sku/product can become more or less profitable based on materials and how it routes through the plant. Unless everything is the same it's not a repeat hence why the term has been purged.

The only real chance an exact repeat has is if the customer literally ordered immediate back to back orders of the same item, same quantity and the same lots of materials and routing were utilized to harness efficiencies. In reality the order would probably just be modified for a higher quantity unless the work was already partially completed.

Oh geez, thats tight. Thanks. I'm guessing you guys print sensitive/security related material or stuff with FSC logos.

 

[chevalier]

Oh geez, thats tight. Thanks. I'm guessing you guys print sensitive/security related material or stuff with FSC logos.

This is quickly becoming standard procedure for many printing plants especially those involved with packaging and labeling. This is out of the box operating mode (track everything) for most of the industry ERP/MIS solutions. We adapted this model because we want to be around 5, 10, 20 years from now. We are really a pretty normal and small folding carton company. We do work for a lot of Fortune 500 companies that require tracking/discovery due to FTC, FDA, etc. (pick a government acronym) regulations.

 

[gig0]

There are also many of us out there willing to fix crappy files. No, the end user doesn't get charged. How much profit do we make? Who knows, we're desperate for work.

We used to be in the same boat. We've started a policy a few years back by emailing the CSR's the time spent fixing a job (or how much time it would take) if it goes beyond X amount of minutes, but also cc'd upper executives as well. Relentlessly bombarding the exec's with this info has helped increase recouping costs as well as giving the customer the option of supplying new files that would take just a couple of minutes to process rather than 4 hours. You'll be surprised how many customers submit corrected artwork after the initial price shock. It benefits all parties.