Old school and/or New press ?

[GazKL440]

We have recently put on an apprentice, and rather than have him sweeping the floor and doing the bins all day (seriously, those jobs CAN be done in 10mins!!) we have had him actually printing on an old GTO46 (with appropriate supervision of course) and assisting with loading on the 40" and 26" presses. So far he has been with us for a few months and seems to be enjoying himself, and is doing very well at learning the operation of each of our presses, and more importantly, is learning to print.

In the last month he spent 3 weeks of it at tech, learning the more technical detalis involved in printing and getting a good grounding in the theory behind printing. One thing that has thoroughly annoyed me however, is the attitude he has copped from fellow trainees at tech. most of these kids are juniors on larger, modern multi-colour presses, and tend to look down their noses at him, one even having the hide to ask what a GTO is!!! From what i can gather, they have very little knowledge of printing, but can make ready a fully auto press in 10 mins!!!

There is a fair chance that the only time some of these trainees will actually see an ink key is at tech, and i fear that this generation of printers will be well and truly stumped if something goes wrong with the auto set up systems on their presses. Unless they go to the sub-continent perhaps

I just hope that they get a good grounding and are working with printers who are not jelous of their knowledge, and learn more about the things that can go wrong and how to fix them, rather than how to push some buttons and hope manfully that it all works. My thoughts are that the the true art of printing, and the satisfaction of getting a difficult job j-u-s-t right, is being lost to the march of technology. However, in this day and age, putting your head in the sand and crying about the old days wont get your job done. The technology of today is taking the art out of printing.... but competition waits for no-one!!

 

[BillJ]

It all boils down to are you a Pressman or a press operator? I've seen newbies and old timers on both sides of the line.

 

[rapid3]

Automation does not make a good pressman. It is a tool that
makes a good pressman better. It is true that with the newer,
automated presses a relatively inexperienced operator can
produce sellable work. But the depth of their experience will
be limited to the number of problems they encounter. We
don't learn anything new when we aren't having problems.
When I was running older "manual" presses (Miller, Harris,
Meihle), I encountered more print related problems in one month
than I did in an entire year or more while running an
automated press.

 

[gordo]

[SNIP] When I was running older "manual" presses (Miller, Harris, Meihle), I encountered more print related problems in one month than I did in an entire year or more while running an automated press.

That sums it up very well. And as automation increases in sophistication you'll encounter even less need for operator "skill" or traditional "craftsmanship". Who cares how skillful you used to be at using a stickshift if what you're driving has an automatic transmission?

@ BillJ - Although I haven't seen it in the US, in Asia I've seen many press operators who would not likely appreciate being called a "pressman" since they were women. "Press Operator" is just a more inclusive term that describes the job - just like "Police Officer" rather than "Policeman".

best gordon p

 

[Mlpklr]

Gordo I tend to disagree. Craftsmanship is about mechanical skills as well as the other aspects you point out. The mechanical skills come into play as does time tested experience to produce a superior product for the customer. Time and again I've seen an experienced pressman work around a specific press model's deficiency to achieve a spectacular product after a button pushing operator has given up and blamed the machine for his own inexperience. Craftsmanship is taking pride in what you produce while overcoming variables through the printing process. A good pressman DOES add value to the final product, since there isn't an offset press made that will print a perfect job by itself....its a machine, doesn't matter how automated you make it.

For example; an X-Rite scanner will measure ink density across a sheet, send that information to the press PLC, which will then make ink fountain corrections to achieve the parameters requested. There are a thousand and one things that can happen along this process which could turn the product being printed as the customer wanted and OK'd into garbage. I've personally watched an "Operator" continue running garbage because the computer told him everything was OK. He couldn't tell the difference between a 185 density black and a 230 density black, it was OK'd at 185....computer told him it was 185, but the dots looked like footballs, reverse type filled in, he might as well have pushed a dumpster into the delivery. An experienced "Craftsman" that took pride it what he was producing would have seen the change in print quality and made corrections or alterations to "fix" it. This customer had to re-run the job or face losing the account. In this instance a "Craftsman" would have added plenty of value. This operator could have cared less that the product he was producing was junk, and when confronted blamed the machine.

I'll place my money on an experienced pressman that can achieve a quality product regardless of a machines automation level over an inexperienced operator that only knows how to push buttons every day of the week and twice on Sundays! Were I the customer purchasing the product, I'd have pulled the job and taken it to a printer that actually knew how to print.

Now exit screen right to a different time and print company. The owner pays 2.5 million dollars for a machine, but crews this machine with unskilled operators. The lead operator proceeds to dump aqueous coating into the machine from a coater in the middle of the press. Fired the press up and no sheets came out, instead they stuck to the coating, wadded up and finally broke loose going through in a chunk. This caused $250,000 dollars in damage to this owners new machine.....again a qualified pressman would have added value. Automation failed in this scenario, buttons told this guy everything was OK, kept pumping coating even though it wasn't draining. Automation and buttons be damned I'll take a guy (or girl) who knows what they're doing and has mechanical skills to protect my investment.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Gordo I tend to disagree. Craftsmanship is about mechanical skills as well as the other aspects you point out. .

I'm sorry but I agree with Gordon's comment. He did not say to put fools to run the press as seen in your examples. All he said was that with more automation less traditional skills are required. One still wants good operators that are mechanically inclined.

Your comments are biased towards craftsmanship, which is understandable. But if a press could be designed so that density control was inherently stable and there was no ink/water balancing issues and this resulted in consistent and predictable performance, would you not agree that a little bit less skill would be required.

Now you might not believe that that kind of press was possible but that is not the question. The question is if it is possible, would the operator need as much skill.

 

[Mlpklr]

Ooh....this is a slippery slope to traverse, I could probably provide varying examples for nearly 80% of the operators I've met, yet not one of them would consider themselves a "fool".

Automation will never take the place of Craftsmanship. No matter how much automation you load onto a machine, it'll never eliminate printing variables....that's what makes printing printing. Substrates will never be absolutely identical, inks will never be absolutely identical, chemistry combinations will never be absolutely identical, climates and geography differences will never be absolutely identical. It's impossible to design a machine that'll make "predictable performance" out of a moving target. Absolutely I agree that newer machines progress towards more predictable performance, but skill and experience will always be necessary to evaluate what's produced. Who's going to clean, maintain, set, and repair those automated devices which determine the end product. An OEM technician can never be supplied with every machine to be an immediate response to a problem. Wouldn't everyone rather have a qualified pressman with skills be able to get that job printed when the scanner fails; than lose the job because the operator doesn't know how to manually adjust color.

Machinery inherently fails, it's what makes it a machine.......it's the skill of the person running that machine which determines the outcome, success or failure. Overcome, adapt, modify...it's what separates those that "Can", from those that "Can't".

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Ooh....this is a slippery slope to traverse, I could probably provide varying examples for nearly 80% of the operators I've met, yet not one of them would consider themselves a "fool".

.

In your examples, you portrayed them as fools.

And why should the experienced operator have to keep adjusting the ink feed with the ink keys? Did he set them wrong? Something is not right here and in my view it is the press design. With a better designed press, once the keys are set properly, they would not need to be adjusted at all.

 

[RGPW17100]

In the 70s and 80s the tech schools were packed with want to be press operators. It was almost impossible to get into this field because of it. With the invent of the computer people want to run computers not printing presses. Major manufactures of printing equipment had to do something about this. Make presses automatic to reduce the need of experienced operators that might not be available. The CIP 3 and 4 technology to allow different types of pre inking software to run the most difficult part of printing. Heidelberg and Komori aren't producing presses any more they are producing color copiers. With three weeks of training they are able to take a person with very limited experience and make them print better then a veteran press operator. Running a one color press with a T head is a lot tougher to run then a new SM52. The new presses also do not demand a $40 per hour operator anymore. This is our future. These machines are going to become less expensive and more bullet proof. If print shops do not adapt to them they will go out of business. With pricing cut to bare minimum profit an owner can not afford to pay a top of the line conventional press operator wages on simple to run automated presses. Another issue is quality. While these machines allow for ultimate quality what I have noticed is the quality issue is lower on a customers list of priority. The top are price and how fast they can get it. If you cant turn a job in a day in most cases you will not get the job. With the purchase of a new press from Heidelberg you get system service for 3 years. This contract also allows the employer to hire a less qualified operator. Every year a Heidelberg tech will come in and go over the entire press and make sure it is in perfect running condition. Roller striping is taught on the first two days of training and the trainers give you their cell numbers and are usually available to you for the next month or two with no additional charges. Pretty sweet deal. I cant vouch for it but I bet Komori and others do the same thing.

 

[Mlpklr]

With the implementation of this automation, so increases the investment to purchase such a machine. Would Heidelberg have you believe this three years of system service is free? The purchaser is paying for it in the cost of the machine with the initial investment. So logically the print shop owner has just shifted "where" the money is going; he's still paying....but now instead of paying an experienced operator a higher salary he's paying more for the machine. So the owner now entrusts the running and care of this substantial investment to an individual previously mopping the floor who's had three weeks worth of training.

Automation is fantastic, but guess what......... a sheetfed press manufactured in 2010 still has rollers, grippers, a feeder, a delivery, an ink fountain, a dampener system, fountain solution, blankets, plates, etc. just like the 1946 77" Harris I learned on. I started in printing in 1988 and I'm still learning today; I'll never know everything. What I do know for an absolute certainty though is that I know more than an operator who's only been pushing buttons for a year. I can make the press do what that "Operator" can't.....that only comes with experience and skill, and there's no automation or shortcut to that experience. Whereas I would troubleshoot and correct my own press and the owner would pay me accordingly, now he's calling the press manufacturer and paying them. I'd call it a roll of the dice.........I spent years working with someone else until I was entrusted to take over. I learned to care for and maintain the piece of equipment that was paying my salary therefore feeding my family, and I took pride in what I could produce off that machine. Craftsmanship is always worth paying for; if you read my example previously about the "Operator" causing $250,000 dollars worth of damage.....which do you thinks better paying $250k in one day, or an additional $12,500 a year for the next 20 years? That was one instance, how many more instances will that "Operator" have while acquiring the experience to avoid it?

Read the posts here asking for help...........the one's answering are the one's who have experienced something similar and know how to fix it. Can anyone continue arguing that experience isn't necessary and carries no value? I hope one day that I can use my useless experience and worthless skills to help that poor guy with 3 weeks of training class under his belt who was previously mopping the floor because he's going to need it.

 

[Mlpklr]

This discussion simplified is whether a person who's read the Rules of the Road book or played a driving game on XBox can drive a car on the road........good theory, lets perpetuate that. Why not..they're making cars that park themselves right?!

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Automation is fantastic, but guess what......... a sheetfed press manufactured in 2010 still has rollers, grippers, a feeder, a delivery, an ink fountain, a dampener system, fountain solution, blankets, plates, etc. just like the 1946 77" Harris I learned on. .

You are absolutely correct. Presses have not fundamentally changed. But this is also the problem. All those presses do not have mechanical components, such as ink keys etc. that are directly related to the amount of ink that goes into the roller train. For that reason, a lot of skill is required by the operator.

Presses are machines as you have stated but since ink feed is so important, one would think that having direct control of ink feed would be important.

It also makes sense that having a machine (press) which has direct and positive control of ink feed would be better than having a machine that has inconsistent control of ink feed.

So all press manufacturers sell printers a press that does not do what it should do, which is feed ink consistently into the roller train and then they try to sell printers expensive closed loop technology that aims to correct their first mistake in press design.

It is not about automation versus skill. It is about bad press design that requires a lot of skill.

 

[Mlpklr]

I beg to differ; Closed Loop technology is designed to aid in maintaining color by taking the decision making away from the operator as far as the amount of ink key movement. That ink film is split through the roller train, oscillated to a different spot, mixed with water, applied to a plate, transfered to a blanket, and then to a substrate. adhesion properties of everything that ink comes in contact with changes what you end up with. You're blaming a press manufacturer for a "mistake" in press design; You could meter out precisely the exact same amount in precisely the exact same spot, in a precise interval, but when the temperature changes 10 degrees the adhesion properties change and that "precise" amount needs to be adjusted. It's not about a poor design, it's about overcoming variables......this is why it's a "trade" requiring skills. You learn those skills with experience.

Your mentality is shared with many, which is why the marketable skill isn't being passed on to our children. When anyone who knows how to pump gas can run a printing press how will our children earn a living? Even if a press could be designed to run as easily as pumping gas, what would be the upside? The machine would be so expensive very few could afford it, the person running it would make little to no money because anyone could do it. You must be seeing this trend happening now....press sales have diminished due to the rising costs (as well as the economy), operator's salaries have diminished, and every print shop owner blames the press manufacturer for what his/her personnel can't accomplish.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I beg to differ; Closed Loop technology is designed to aid in maintaining color by taking the decision making away from the operator as far as the amount of ink key movement. That ink film is split through the roller train, oscillated to a different spot, mixed with water, applied to a plate, transfered to a blanket, and then to a substrate. adhesion properties of everything that ink comes in contact with changes what you end up with. You're blaming a press manufacturer for a "mistake" in press design; You could meter out precisely the exact same amount in precisely the exact same spot, in a precise interval, but when the temperature changes 10 degrees the adhesion properties change and that "precise" amount needs to be adjusted. It's not about a poor design, it's about overcoming variables......this is why it's a "trade" requiring skills. You learn those skills with experience.

Your mentality is shared with many, which is why the marketable skill isn't being passed on to our children. When anyone who knows how to pump gas can run a printing press how will our children earn a living? Even if a press could be designed to run as easily as pumping gas, what would be the upside? The machine would be so expensive very few could afford it, the person running it would make little to no money because anyone could do it. You must be seeing this trend happening now....press sales have diminished due to the rising costs (as well as the economy), operator's salaries have diminished, and every print shop owner blames the press manufacturer for what his/her personnel can't accomplish.

You didn't address the press design problem regarding the fact that all presses do not have direct and consistent control on ink feed.

 

[Mlpklr]

Mechanical Engineer huh Erik? When you've actually learned how to print we can continue this discussion, because right now we're not speaking the same language.

I can carry a consistent 5 micron ink film thickness out of an ink fountain; but that does not translate to an unvarying ink density measured across each and every sheet. Anyone who actually knows how to print knows this. When you can get that "consistent control on ink feed" through varying rubber roller durometers in a machine that fluctuates 50 degrees through a normal days operation, and can measure that precision on every consecutive sheet from every paper supplier available worldwide then you'll have something...........

Good Luck in your pursuit.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I can carry a consistent 5 micron ink film thickness out of an ink fountain; but that does not translate to an unvarying ink density measured across each and every sheet. Anyone who actually knows how to print knows this. .

Your right. I have never said it does. I have never said that the ink film across the ink fountain roller, that is intended to go to the roller train should be an even ink film.

I have always talked about consistent ink feed into the roller train (at each key). One key might set the ink key for 10% another might be set to 20%. The issue is that modern offset presses still can not feed that 10% or 20% consistently because there is no mechanical component adjustment that is directly related to the amount of ink that goes into the press. You still do not want to address that fact. The ink key setting is not directly related to the amount of ink that goes into the press at that key.

 

[printerpete]

Your right. I have never said it does. I have never said that the ink film across the ink fountain roller, that is intended to go to the roller train should be an even ink film.

I have always talked about consistent ink feed into the roller train (at each key). One key might set the ink key for 10% another might be set to 20%. The issue is that modern offset presses still can not feed that 10% or 20% consistently because there is no mechanical component adjustment that is directly related to the amount of ink that goes into the press. You still do not want to address that fact. The ink key setting is not directly related to the amount of ink that goes into the press at that key.

Erik i dont understand your point, but let me address something (based on what i have understood from this post) correct me if i am wrong

When you say their is no mechanical adjustment to control the ink going into the press, what do you think ink keys are for?

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Erik i dont understand your point, but let me address something (based on what i have understood from this post) correct me if i am wrong

When you say their is no mechanical adjustment to control the ink going into the press, what do you think ink keys are for?

The ink keys do not meter the amount of ink that goes into the roller train. On presses with ductor rollers, maybe about 1/4 to 1/3 of the ink metered by the ink key goes into the roller train.

The ink key might be very accurate in metering the ink onto the ink fountain roller but the transfer of ink from the ink fountain roller to the roller train is affected by a lot of variables. Such as water, temperature, press speed, etc. Also when the ductor comes into contact with the ink fountain roller, ink is actually going in both directions. This can be seen if you contaminate a yellow unit with magenta. Some of that magenta that got backtrapped will end up in the ink fountain.

The point here is that even if the ink key is not moved the net amount of ink going into the roller train will change when these other variables change. So that is why I say the press does not have a mechanical component that is directly related to the amount of ink that goes into the roller train. Ink feed is very much affected by changes in ink transfer at the ductor.

It is like driving a car that has the steering system connected to the wheels with a flexible rubber linkage. Little disturbances in the road or a cross wind will move the car off line as the alignment of the wheels changes even if the driver did not change the position of the steering wheel.

All I have been trying to say is that if the feed of ink is consistent into the roller train, then it would be easier to run the press since disturbances would not affect the ink feed and therefore density would be more consistent.

It seems to me that many press operators do not know that the ink key setting does not accurately set the amount of ink that goes to the press.

 

[printerpete]

The ink keys do not meter the amount of ink that goes into the roller train. On presses with ductor rollers, maybe about 1/4 to 1/3 of the ink metered by the ink key goes into the roller train.

The ink key might be very accurate in metering the ink onto the ink fountain roller but the transfer of ink from the ink fountain roller to the roller train is affected by a lot of variables. Such as water, temperature, press speed, etc. Also when the ductor comes into contact with the ink fountain roller, ink is actually going in both directions. This can be seen if you contaminate a yellow unit with magenta. Some of that magenta that got backtrapped will end up in the ink fountain.

The point here is that even if the ink key is not moved the net amount of ink going into the roller train will change when these other variables change. So that is why I say the press does not have a mechanical component that is directly related to the amount of ink that goes into the roller train. Ink feed is very much affected by changes in ink transfer at the ductor.

It is like driving a car that has the steering system connected to the wheels with a flexible rubber linkage. Little disturbances in the road or a cross wind will move the car off line as the alignment of the wheels changes even if the driver did not change the position of the steering wheel.

All I have been trying to say is that if the feed of ink is consistent into the roller train, then it would be easier to run the press since disturbances would not affect the ink feed and therefore density would be more consistent.

It seems to me that many press operators do not know that the ink key setting does not accurately set the amount of ink that goes to the press.

erik what is your job?

i still dont understand what your point is, nobody said a press is perfect hence why printers need to know what their doing

also i keep gettig confused cpz it looks like ductor roller has different meanings in different countries

 

[Deleted member 16349]

erik what is your job?

i still dont understand what your point is, nobody said a press is perfect hence why printers need to know what their doing

also i keep gettig confused cpz it looks like ductor roller has different meanings in different countries

In some areas the ductor is the same as the ink fountain roller and the keys are called ducts. At least that is what I think they are called in some locations such as in England. In North America the Ductor roller is usually the roller that goes back and forth contacting the high speed rollers of the roller train and then the ink fountain roller to pick up ink.

Times have changed and the process needs to become better and better for economic reasons.