Overs and Unders

[TJPrinter]

I’m curious what others experience when working with trade printers. I have a form vendor that is always 10% over and bills for the difference, no problem, better than short. I have another 4/4 vendor that is ALWAYS 10% under and will not adjust pricing to reflect it. It gets a bit annoying on the unders when the order is for postcards or brochures for a mailing since I need to print that 10% inhouse to make up for the shortage. I wouldn’t mind as much if I was billed for what was shipped, but that’s not the case.

I try not to send many jobs out but sometimes the numbers make more sense to outsource. Maybe I should be looking for a new source for 4/4?

 

[keith1]

Most customers don't count unless it's quite a small amount.
Personally, I ensured customers had a few overs.
Subcontracting, I was billed for overs once. There had been no previous indication this would happen. I complained, pointing out my years of experience within the business (don't try pulling one over on me). The extra charge was deducted. It was the first & last time I dealt with that company. They closed not long after so I guess others didn't think the world of them either.
In my experience, most printers ensure the correct amount & some overs. It's better than dealing with dissatisfied customers.
I have worked for people that would bring in the exact amount of stock required for a job. For example; customer wants 500 or1000 letterhead, that exact amount was ordered. Thereby pretty much ensuring that the customer would be shorted.
I recognize that at times shortages occur for whatever reason. During my days as a press operator sometimes things would go awry and small shortages were sneaked out to the customer. If it was a noticeable shortage though, one must own up.
Most shops I was associated with always brought in extra stock. The remainder would sit on the shelf but nearly always be used for subsequent orders within a reasonable time frame.
Only once have I ever had a customer bring up that they received more than they should. The order was for 1000 booklets. As I recall they had received 10 or 15 extra and, would they have to pay for them. No, of course not.
Pads were always an issue. I'd tell staff; whatever you do, make sure the customer receives the correct number of pads. If they ordered 100 pads and they received 99 there would be hell to pay. Doesn't matter that there might be 110 in each pad instead of the required 100. Customer only counts the pads.
General rule for the print shop owner is; don't be a cheap dickhead.

PS/ I spent a number of years brokering to trade shops. It took some time but you find out who the good shops are and develop a relationship with them. There were others I wouldn't deal with if it was free.

Another PS/ You mention form vendor. If it's large quantity run on a web it could account for a little less control over finished quantity. Perhaps acceptable provided you were pre-warned of the overage charge ahead of time. I still wouldn't like it.

 

[kslight]

I understand the need for overs and unders, but in my practice I always lean towards exact quantity or over, never ship under. Nobody is ever going to complain about receiving a few extra.

I think it’s a dickhead move to ship under but charge for the full amount. If they are consistently sending jobs short then they need to run more.

I would find another printer.

 

[narseman]

We charge for up to 10% overs. But it's clear to the customer before hand. Some insist on exact counts.. No problem. Very rare to send short. Even 1's and 2's.. We make them up, or charge only for the shipped count. Easier to do in a digital shop.

 

[chriscozi]

General rule for the print shop owner is; don't be a cheap dickhead.

This.

 

[keith1]

This.

These would be the same characters that keep their garbage & recycling bin out back under lock & key because of some paranoia that competitors were rummaging through in the middle of the night for the purpose of stealing customers.
I knew of a large shop that would cover up machinery if another piece of equipment needed servicing. They didn't want it to get out what equipment was on their floor (it was nothing special). Operators were encouraged to dismantle & try to fix before a service person was brought in. I'd seen equipment sit idle for a couple weeks rather than have a possible 'spy' enter the building.
Then there's those that held their customers film hostage (old days). If customer requested their film there was some flimsy excuse for not returning it. This despite that the customer had paid for it when ordering the printing. As a result, customer relations were as expected.

 

[Magnus59]

Then there's those that held their customers film hostage (old days). If customer requested their film there was some flimsy excuse for not returning it. This despite that the customer had paid for it when ordering the printing. As a result, customer relations were as expected.

Here in Australia, back in the days before GST, when sales tax was payable at the last wholesale point of sale, artwork, typesetting etc including film negatives or positives were none taxable as they were considered to be an aid to production, therefore not sold to the customer. As a result, we could not legally had over film to the customer, and most printers had terms & conditions which explicitly stated that the sale was of the final printed items, and all film, artwork etc used in the production remained the property of the printer.

 

[keith1]

all film, artwork etc used in the production remained the property of the printer.

Not here. At least I never worked for a shop that didn't charge for film, film assembly (stripping) & plates. That didn't stop some from using an excuse similar to what you state (or whatever else they could make up) to keep the film. Some claimed a legal right. Bullshit as far as I was concerned—customer paid, it's theirs.
Fact is, they were under the delusion that by not handing over the film the customer would continue dealing with them.
Obviously the biggest reason for the client to request film was because they'd decided for whatever reason to move on. Denying what they'd paid for only made for hard feelings, and bad news travels fast.
Common decency should have prevailed.
Days of film were gone by the time I ran my own show. I never had any trouble handing over people's files provided their account was up to date. I seldom lost a customer and most often the request for files was to grab bits for other purposes, such signage, some used an overseas printer for certain items . . .

I forgot the GST days. It was a long time ago. The days when you had to explain to unschooled buyers why they had to pay an extra tax at the printer. I suppose there may be some merit there. But customer still paid for film, plates & related, and I'd still have handed over the film regardless.
Besides, when the job was quoted/billed it was as a total price, including the film, so the customer would have already paid whatever tax, as required.

 

[TJPrinter]

Thanks everyone, this confirms what I was thinking. I would never short an order and then expect the customer to pay for the original quantity that they ordered.

I have no problem with the forms printer that always overruns, these are 2 and 3 part continuous forms and they let me know ahead of time that they typically run over to ensure they hit the needed quantity.

Time to find a new 4/4 trade printer, I just received my last order from these guys.

 

[chriscozi]

Here in Australia, back in the days before GST, when sales tax was payable at the last wholesale point of sale, artwork, typesetting etc including film negatives or positives were none taxable as they were considered to be an aid to production, therefore not sold to the customer. As a result, we could not legally had over film to the customer, and most printers had terms & conditions which explicitly stated that the sale was of the final printed items, and all film, artwork etc used in the production remained the property of the printer.

Here in the US there was a case that went to the Supreme Court back when - decided if the contract didn't state the film/art/etc was the clients then it wasn't.
Which led to most buyers demanding contract specifics and most printers relinquished that semblance of control.
Always seemed dumb to me to try to battle the customer.
Charge extra at the time of the request or add it to the original quote.
Either way you get paid and the customer gets what they want.

 

[tngcas]

Time to find a new 4/4 trade printer, I just received my last order from these guys.

I wouldn't deal with someone who consistently shorted us, unless the reason they're shorting is because they're ordering EXACT quantities and then then are deducting the misprints from the order. If so, it had better reflect in their pricing, their pricing should be lower compared to other shops that don't do that. In which case I would order enough to make up the shortages. IE. If I need 5000 I would just make a habit of ordering 5500 so that if it's off by 10% I'm still covered.