Pay Per Click vs Pay Per Visit

[Shredder]

I have been watching this video:
KM Accurio Press Review

My expectation from digital printing manufacturers is that they are designing super reliable equipment that requires minimal maintenance and is rock solid. Thirty years ago a book printer friend of mine suggested Minolta printers (pre Konica) after trying everything else in the market. For awhile printers were highly unreliable but over time in order to be properly efficient they need to be bulletproof. Most of the problems we have had over the years has been from little feeder parts that need to be replaced from time to time. We would keep contracts due to costs of replacing fierys and maintaining perfect binders. I'm having a hard time justifying spending PPC on newer machines that should have matured over the years (vaccum paper loading, relay units, finishing). Older machines with broken/worn down parts I understand but really cost to keep a production press operational for first 2 million clicks should not cost more than few thousand dollars. Also toner cost is minimal. I just can't justify spending thousands per month on getting quality we should expect. Its like a tesla under warranty one should not need service for first 100k miles other than tires and batteries need to last 1 million miles. I do like the feeling of security thst machine parts are covered and someone will be out in few hours to fix but after spending $5-20k annually on PPC I don't see the risk to reward benefit.

Any thoughts?

 

[AP90]

Well I can tell you you’ll have slit more than a few thousands in repairs if you pay per visit. The visit alone could cost you that. If it’s a oddball item it could be a while to diagnose, and then you’ll need to have the part replaced the next day because the tech won’t have it with them.

for our Xerox 3100 we went through numerous fuser belts, 2nd btr’s, replacement gears everywhere, fiery crash and reload, 2 days worth of diagnosing because the machines software had a bad patch, lots of booklet maker servicing, etc. All within 2 million clicks. My guess between parts and labor your looking at 15-20k minimum for those visits.

 

[Shredder]

I can easily believe that for Xerox. Konica Minolta is cheaper to service and most of the kinks have worked out (fiery not included nor oddball finishers). Don't know xerox's full history but whenever I see their PPC prices they have a totally different attitude.

In the past because of the fiery I would have definetly kept the PPC contract. But this time I am debating either to go with KMBS controller or get fiery directly from local reseller which comes with a lifetime warranty.

Also in the past paper feeding was a problem but the new vacuum paper feeders seem to be 100% accurate. I do agree fusers are still a sore spot but easily sourced when needed. My local KMBS weren't servicing my Perfect Binder properly for $70/mo I am giving them for last 5 years.

 

[gazfocus]

Your cost per click isn’t JUST paying for potential repairs though, it’s paying for your consumables too. Not just toners, but the drums/developers, coronas, fuser, etc, it all adds up.

Having said that, we have a Konica C3070 and I absolutely love the machine but I wouldn’t run it without a service contract on the hope that the technology has matured enough for it to be rock solid.

99% of the time our machine runs error free but last week it jammed big time. The card stock it was printing on at the time forced a gouge in the fuser roller. A tech came out, replaced the roller and the belt in the fuser and we were back up and running. Less than a week later, a thermister (I believe) went and every time we tried printing more than a single sheet a fuse tripped in the printer. Engineer came out and ok he didn’t have the part needed but we got another engineer out the next working day that got us up and running.

Another time the engineer had to replace every developer, every coroner and something else in one go, he also spent a good few hours vacuuming out the developer that had exploded all over the inside of our machine.

I can tell you that if we had to pay for these callouts, even without parts it would likely have cost more than we’ve spent on cost per click to date.

At the end of the day, you cannot just assume that ‘Konica machines have matured to fault free devices’ as it’s 100% not the case.

 

[Ynot_UK]

Trying to make savings by not having a PPC contract in my book would be a false economy. You will try to run the machine with less than optimum consumables, instead of replacing. You’ll adopt less than ideal workarounds to carry on without getting issues fixed. You’ll then hit a big problem you can’t clear yourself and pay over the odds for engineering time and parts. With PPC you can budget and quote accurately and spend time doing your job rather than doubling up as a DIY engineer. There’s many easier ways to save money, or indeed make money, than taking a chance on going it alone. Having said that, I do take my hat off to Just a Printer Dan who makes the videos, the guy is incredible as are his mechanical engineering skills. Don’t forget he has redundancy with his 3 KM presses, one of which is on PPC (the 3070).

 

[Shredder]

Great discussion points. Consumables run less than $2000/annually for me and I'm including a new set of drums/developers/fusers/toners/coronas/etc. I have seen them take a dump once or twice every few years. My contract I currently spend $15-20k annually (projected to double with 400gsm capability). With the extra $18k I can buy 2 more production presses (I have the space for it). Most of my stuff is not mission critical, we usually stock extras on shelf in case machine goes down for days or even weeks (KM was not responding within 2 hours for me, lucky in 2 days). I kept my stuff on contract as I was worried about my fierys. Had them replaced a few times in last 20 years. Also my perfect binder needs constant attention but service reps didn't know how to service it properly so I bought 2 backups which we used once when glue tank got covered completely in glue - took 6+ months for them to figure out how to clean it with me yelling weekly to get it done.

I dont think there will be issues with paper feeder or staple finisher. Ive bern trying to find a tech to moonlight off of craigslist to make repairs even cheaper.

 

[AP90]

Great discussion points. Consumables run less than $2000/annually for me and I'm including a new set of drums/developers/fusers/toners/coronas/etc. I have seen them take a dump once or twice every few years. My contract I currently spend $15-20k annually (projected to double with 400gsm capability). With the extra $18k I can buy 2 more production presses (I have the space for it). Most of my stuff is not mission critical, we usually stock extras on shelf in case machine goes down for days or even weeks (KM was not responding within 2 hours for me, lucky in 2 days). I kept my stuff on contract as I was worried about my fierys. Had them replaced a few times in last 20 years. Also my perfect binder needs constant attention but service reps didn't know how to service it properly so I bought 2 backups which we used once when glue tank got covered completely in glue - took 6+ months for them to figure out how to clean it with me yelling weekly to get it done.

I dont think there will be issues with paper feeder or staple finisher. Ive bern trying to find a tech to moonlight off of craigslist to make repairs even cheaper.

Consumables only run you 2k/year including drums? Quick search showed $1700 for a toner set and 4 drums. Use another toner set and your over 2k.

Honestly, you’ve already made up your mind. You asked our opinions and we gave them to you. You’ve came back saying “well this is cheaper” etc each time. I get it, we all want to save money, but there’s a reason most people in this industry don’t do what your suggesting.

 

[pippip]

Yeh OP, something isn't right about your figures. Could you provide a better breakdown of how you're working that out?

 

[Ynot_UK]

@Shredder you're lucky to have the space to accommodate another two production presses - I'm sure I'm not the only one on here envying your available space! However on your other current thread, you mention your volume is only 100k clicks per annum... which begs the question why you need more presses when you've already got a big beast in the C6100. Particularly since you've suggested redundancy is not an issue. You seem to already have more than enough rig for the gig, so to speak.

 

[Shredder]

Consumables only run you 2k/year including drums? Quick search showed $1700 for a toner set and 4 drums. Use another toner set and your over 2k.

Honestly, you’ve already made up your mind. You asked our opinions and we gave them to you. You’ve came back saying “well this is cheaper” etc each time. I get it, we all want to save money, but there’s a reason most people in this industry don’t do what your suggesting.

I priced out the components from this website:
discount copier center

I haven't fully made up my mind and waiting on PPC quotes from local suppliers. I do want to hear other opposing opinions to stop me from making a huge mistake. I have had PPC contracts for 20 years on bizhub style equipment and 5 years on a production printer. For the production printer the service tech visited often with minor issues. Most of it was related to paper feeding which most everyone says was vastly improved with the vacuum paper feed. For years the service technicians would tell me about the newer improvement. The only other issue we really had was with the perfect binder. It would jam up from time to time and be a huge pain to fix.

 

[Shredder]

@Shredder you're lucky to have the space to accommodate another two production presses - I'm sure I'm not the only one on here envying your available space! However on your other current thread, you mention your volume is only 100k clicks per annum... which begs the question why you need more presses when you've already got a big beast in the C6100. Particularly since you've suggested redundancy is not an issue. You seem to already have more than enough rig for the gig, so to speak.

There was a point I wanted 2 presses one color and one bw. Mostly due to PPC costs. I am a self published author and want to hand out my books free to people interested in them. My volumes can increase really high due to that (one of my key books is 450 pages 6x9). 100k prints will only print ~200 books (we were keeping 1000 books on hand). I have scaled it back last couple years but would like to restart that project. It's a side personal project and nothing to do with my main business. Printing costs is much higher than the paper costs. I am trying to analyze if there is a way to reduce unnecessary overhead.

 

[prepmaster]

I've been lucky with my Konica c1060... Bought it in 2014 and now have 7 million clicks on it... Kept the service contract for just one year and I've been doing my own maintenance since... I have a local tech who is well versed in the machine and comes by when it's something i cannot handle... Last year i only spent 1500 on labor to call the tech. I buy all my parts and supplies from Discount Copier... Other than the usual replacement items I've only had to replace the fuser with a new one and rebuilt the old one to keep as a spare, same with the transfer belt assembly, one for 12x18 the other for 13x19....

 

[Craig]

"My expectation from digital printing manufacturers is that they are designing super reliable equipment that requires minimal maintenance and is rock solid."

That's funny right there. I had a KM1250 that left with 30million that saw service about once a month. I now have a KM6136 that sees every bit the same. I have a Xerox 1000i that sees service about once a quarter.

That statement quoted is farther from anything I have ever heard in the last 26 years by anyone other than a salesmonkey!

 

[azehnali]

I've been lucky with my Konica c1060... Bought it in 2014 and now have 7 million clicks on it... Kept the service contract for just one year and I've been doing my own maintenance since... I have a local tech who is well versed in the machine and comes by when it's something i cannot handle... Last year i only spent 1500 on labor to call the tech. I buy all my parts and supplies from Discount Copier... Other than the usual replacement items I've only had to replace the fuser with a new one and rebuilt the old one to keep as a spare, same with the transfer belt assembly, one for 12x18 the other for 13x19....

what dont you add up all your costs and your labor at $25 an hour and see what your per copy cost is

 

[Shredder]

I've been lucky with my Konica c1060... Bought it in 2014 and now have 7 million clicks on it... Kept the service contract for just one year and I've been doing my own maintenance since... I have a local tech who is well versed in the machine and comes by when it's something i cannot handle... Last year i only spent 1500 on labor to call the tech. I buy all my parts and supplies from Discount Copier... Other than the usual replacement items I've only had to replace the fuser with a new one and rebuilt the old one to keep as a spare, same with the transfer belt assembly, one for 12x18 the other for 13x19....

That's my expectation that these machines are not that expensive to run without a service contract. It's nice piece of mind but for 7 million sheets we are talking about $100-200K worth of PPC (depending on color/bw count). $1500/yr labor sounds reasonable. I called Discount Copier and was told they have many customers who fix things themselves. He even guides them over the phone.

 

[Shredder]

That's funny right there. I had a KM1250 that left with 30million that saw service about once a month. I now have a KM6136 that sees every bit the same. I have a Xerox 1000i that sees service about once a quarter.

That statement quoted is farther from anything I have ever heard in the last 26 years by anyone other than a salesmonkey!

I think it is hit and miss. I remember older machines giving me a super hard time. Over the years some things have been improved (paper feeding, paper finishers). The print engine itself hasn't changed much. My older C6000 likes to heat up inside pretty good which I think would make things extra buggy. I bet they have improved that in 10 years.

 

[pippip]

Do you have much coverage in your prints?

I only ask as our current Xerox surprised us with the huge amounts of toner cartridges it gets through compared to our older model on solids. (V80 vs DC242)
If I wasn't on PPC it would be a major consideration when quoting jobs. I think it would actually be a problem to quote on a large job without seeing an artwork.

 

[Shredder]

It varies for us but from my experience minoltas tend to be decent. My Okidatas eat toner like a fat boy on a diet. We usually get decent amount of prints from each toner on the minolta.

 

[Ynot_UK]

My volumes can increase really high due to that (one of my key books is 450 pages 6x9). 100k prints will only print ~200 books (we were keeping 1000 books on hand). I have scaled it back last couple years but would like to restart that project. It's a side personal project and nothing to do with my main business. Printing costs is much higher than the paper costs. I am trying to analyze if there is a way to reduce unnecessary overhead.

What size stock are you printing these books on?
I’m struggling with 100k clicks to make 200 books

 

[Shredder]

6"x9" 20lb (24lb makes the books to thick)