PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

[Al Ferrari]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Hi Dov,

Thanks for participating. Can you please flesh out your comment about printing PDF/X-4 files to older Level 2 rips using Acrobat 8 Pro a bit more?

I assume you are referring to having Acrobat 8 Pro do the flattening and the color managed rendering to postscript, which then gets printed in the normal way by the Level 2 device. If this is essentially correct, please compare it to the case in which we have the IDCS3 native file that would have made the PDF/X-4 file. Would printing from IDCS3 to Device Independent postscript with a high resolution flattener setting, and proper Color Management settings, and sending that to the Level 2 device give the same results?

Thanks,

Al

 

[John W]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Dov,
Of course it may not be a crutch issue. If you have thousands of legacy files that must be reprinted over and over as we do in folding carton shops, if you introduce new workflows (ie new pdf versions, new rips, new trap methods or anything really), you are at risk of introducing anomalies that are/maybe unacceptable. If you print on 24pt -30pt card and run 10,000 sheets that are wrong, you lose your shirt and are out of business virtually immediately. So printers 'fear' is well founded and that fear lives within their Prep Depts in this scenario.

At the very least, I would suggest that both old postscript systems must continue to be in place and used as well as newer systems. Of course, if the older system can be made to work (and it can with early flattening), then many printers will not upgrade; their mindset is to spend as little as possible since development continues at a faster pace than ever plus with umpteen pdf flavors so they feel (perhaps erroneously) that "we'll wait for the thing to settle" before spending money.

m2cw,
John W

 

[rich apollo]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

The print dialogue in Acrobat is insufficient. Until one can specify the output size, it's not all that useful from a prepress perspective.

I haven't overlooked it somewhere, have I?

rich

 

[Al Ferrari]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Good point Rich,

It can be set in File > Page Setup, not in the print dialog. This seems to work to an extent. But it does not pick up the available page sizes from the selected device's ppd. You have to create them in the driver with the
Manage Custom Sizes option. But this is sadly the same situation in IDCS3 or the other CS3 applications.

Al

Edit: It's been that way in all the CS to CS3 applications as far as I can see.

Edited by: Al Ferrari on Apr 15, 2008 12:27 PM

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

{color:#999999}Al,

Yes, obviously when printing a PDF/X-4 file or equivalent from Acrobat to a PostScript language level 2 or 3 printer, the flattening is done when creating the PostScript. Typically, you must set the flattener parameters to 100% vector with the resolution set to the output device's actual device resolution. You must also change the default from +PostScript Color Management+ to the color space specified in the document's output intent specification. As you surmise, printing from InDesign 5 with comparable settings yield comparable results.

I generally prefer to export PDF and print from Acrobat 8 Pro +after seriously viewing and preflighting in Acrobat 8 Pro.+ For more "informal" workflows, some third party plug-ins, such as +Quite Imposing+ and +Quite Imposing Plus,+ do an admirable job of providing imposition functions and support for larger paper sizes. Acrobat 8 Pro has built-in support for printers marks.

- Dov{color}

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

John W,

Obviously, when you are dealing with legacy files that must be reprinted or for which simple modifications are made, you need to maintain consistency with the past, whether that is done via printing old PostScript files or using older workflows that were in use at the time the older content was last printing.

From Adobe's perspective, although we most strongly recommend PDF workflows that maintain content at the highest level of abstraction (live transparency, color management, etc.) and that the bulk of our print system development is now associated with the Adobe PDF Print Engine, we continue to offer PostScript-based printers and RIPs through our OEM partners and will continue to do so for the indefinite future as long as demand exists. We will also +not+ obsolete existing PostScript and EPS-based digital assets; EPS will be supported as a format for placement and conversion with Adobe applications and we will continue to support creation of PDF from PostScript and EPS.

- Dov

 

[kaiserwilhelm]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

I am not trying to hijack this thread. Just seems that so much good information is coming out.
One last question: The customer mentioned in my posts above ONLY has CS2 ID.
Other than the Export PDF command not allowing Layers to be toggled off or on, will I notice anything major
if receiving 1.6 PDFs from them? Stupid question, but will they be giving me Postscript Level 3 out of CS2 ID?

 

[leonardr]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

What do you mean by the "output size"? The size of the PDF page (aka
MediaBox) defines the size of the output - though you can certainly scale
the page to match the paper size in the Acrobat dialog.

What else are you thinking about?

Leonard

 

[Tech]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Hi Dov,
With all due respect, no doubt you have deeper knowledge regarding PDF and its history. I just have a general distrust regarding info presented in the form of "I told you so...". Certainly, I'll need some formal documentation to help re-educate everyone in our staff and make it official. If you can point me to the right direction that would be helpful.

In case, you are wondering, PS > Distiller workflow comes as first choice from all of our printers in generating press-ready PDF. Although some printers did support/suggest using export functions within Adobe Apps. Even so, as you know, Quark > PS > Distiller is proven even if it's lossy. We'll have to compromise on lossy files rather than "can't print this %$#%@ file"... Egos will be harm during that process.

I appreciate the detail explanation and I even found your old interview @PlanetPDF. I find your statement of PDF format had surpassed postscript very interesting. http://www.adobe.com/print/features/psvspdf/index.html

If you ever write a book regarding "History of PDF", I'll be sure to purchase a copy.


Thanks.

 

[GregO]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

Dov,

I currently use a workflow that consists of making v1.3 pdf, proofing that flattened file and then sending the flattened pdf to the printer. You imply that creating pdfs that hold live transparancy as being a good thing. I can't help but think that leaving the flattening process until it reaches the printer is slightly risky as things may change when flattened. If things do change in the file, instead of many people seeing this post flattened file(as is now my situation with people seeing proofs from flattened files) only one person would see the post RIPed file. And if things do change I'll have to send an emergency replacement file which could pose a huge problem if the issue is with an advertisement and I'm unable to get in contact with the advertiser. Has your experience shown that there are no problems that crep up when live transparency files are flattened at the RIP or are there things to watch out for or avoid?

Also, why is the following important?
"For reliable PDF print publishing workflows, you need to maintain content at the highest level of abstraction all the way through the workflow up to the point where the final form file format data (in this case PDF) is rendered/RIPed"
I currently don't do this and the files turn out great. Do you think that I will see a noticable increase in quality or efficiency by utilizing v1.4 or higher pdf?

Thank you,

Greg

 

[Colorblind]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

The answer to your last question would be "for re-purposing"

 

[rich apollo]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

> {quote:title=leonardr wrote:}{quote}
> What do you mean by the "output size"? The size of the PDF page (aka
> MediaBox) defines the size of the output - though you can certainly scale
> the page to match the paper size in the Acrobat dialog.
>
> What else are you thinking about?
>
> Leonard

We need to be able to state the output page size in absolute terms (so many inches x so many inches) as we can with the other apps. Also need to be able to state percentage of enlargement or reduction. Pulling the size from the MediaBox is not enough.

The reason this isn't completely necessary in the PDF Export of InDesign is because we can scale the elements in InDesign and set up the pages to the size we need. It'd be useful, however, if scaling and page size were available there, too.

rich

 

[leonardr]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

So you want to adjust this in the print dialog AS OPPOSED TO actually modifying the PDF document itself?

I ask because Acrobat Professional already provides tools for enabling you to scale and/or adjust the page size of a given document - scaling the content or not, as you see fit. Is that not what you want?

Why would you want to do that only for a single print job and not permanently?

Trying to understand the use case and needs...

Thanks,
Leonard

 

[bluskool]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

> {quote:title=leonardr wrote:}{quote}
> So you want to adjust this in the print dialog AS OPPOSED TO actually modifying the PDF document itself?
>
> I ask because Acrobat Professional already provides tools for enabling you to scale and/or adjust the page size of a given document - scaling the content or not, as you see fit.

Or you could select a custom page size in the page setup dialog box and select the percentage of reducing or enlarging in the Acrobat print dialog box. The only thing with either option is that I believe the scaling must be proportional in Acrobat and InDesign could give you that option.

I am glad this thread is happening. As can be seen from some of the replies, it can be difficult to explain to a printer that technology has changed. It seems that many people in the industry think it is "safe" to remain 5 years behind. That is why we have this wonderful thing called competition. I am sure there are a lot of print providers here who love to hear that their competition rejects PDF's higher than version 1.3. That just means more business for them.

 

[rich apollo]

Re: PDF Creation from Indesign-- Export vs Postscript -Distiller

> {quote:title=leonardr wrote:}{quote}
> So you want to adjust this in the print dialog AS OPPOSED TO actually modifying the PDF document itself?
>
> I ask because Acrobat Professional already provides tools for enabling you to scale and/or adjust the page size of a given document - scaling the content or not, as you see fit. Is that not what you want?
>
> Why would you want to do that only for a single print job and not permanently?
>
> Trying to understand the use case and needs...
>
> Thanks,
> Leonard

That's a good point, Leonard, and the updated crop features are a gift from God. But it would be useful to have those options available in the print dialogue. Perhaps one would like to set the piece up to have crop marks on the printed piece and not in the actual file. Perhaps you need one-off at another percentage for various reasons - repurposing. Often the pages don't come in the same size - but perhaps that would be better handled in the fashion you describe.

rich