PDF job option changes inside InDesign

[sigurarm]

Hello experts.

I posted this question at the InDesign forum at Adobe but got no answers to this problem. Now I want to try you.

I am working with a group of professionals on a custom Job Option for PDF making for RGB workflow.
The first version was made in 2009 and now we are updating some of the settings. We want to get rid of a problem that only occurs in InDesign ( it started in version 5 or 5.5 we believe) but not in Illustrator and Photoshop. This happens on Macs but I have no information about Windows, if it behaves like this. All Mac OsX from 10.6 to 10.9.

The Job Option is set to use Output: Profile Inclusion Policy: Include All RGB and Tagged Source CMYK Profiles. But very often changes over to: Output: Profile Inclusion Policy: All Profiles, which causes CMYK colours like K 100 to be split into multiple CMYK values.

As I said, this never happens to Illustrator or Photoshop using the same profile. They respect the settings.


Typical senario:

An InDesign file has been used to make a PDF. The user does not check if the setting has changed and there is no (Modified) in the name of the Job Option. PDF is processed with Outout: Colour Conversion: All Profiles (wrong).

Another user opens this file to make a PDF. He is using the Job Option which should say Include All RGB... but instead it shows now All Profiles. He changes over to Include All RGB... and gets (Modified) added to the name of the Job Option. Saves the InDesign file.

The ID file is opened yet again and one can choose between the Job Option (modified) or Job Option. Job Option (modified) is now correct but the original Job Option has All Profiles on.

Now let's restart InDesign. Open the file and export a pdf again. In the Export Adobe PDF Job Option (modified) is selected and has Include All RGB... on. Switching over to the original Job Option, it's still with All Profiles ... but not with (modified). Just like one has changed it and saved. Using the same in Illustrator has Include All RGB... so it is obvious that the Job Option has not changed itself, but InDesign is doing something wrong here.

I wonder if anyone has had similar problems with custom Job Options or can imagine why this is happening.
Cache something?
Maybe related to InDesign remembering the name of the last PDF made?

Job Option settings used:
Compatability: PDF 1.7 (old one used 1.6)
Compression: zip 318/500 (old one used 318/450)
Marks and Bleeds: Crop Marks
Output: No Colour Conversion, Destination N/A, Profile Inclusion Policy: Include All RGB and Tagged Source CMYK Profiles

It's very important for us to find out why InDesign is treating the job option this way because it is impossible to prevent people from making the mistake of not checking the Output section before they make the pdf.

 

[pcmodem]

While I have not run into this. I do have a thought on how to possibly fix this. It sounds like the Profile may have been created outside of InDesign. What I would do is make the modification you require within InDesign and save it as a New name. Then you can validate the profile works in all other applications as well.

A note about when someone makes a change to the settings within InDesign when exporting a PDF. The (modified) is a temporary setting which shows you which Profile was used for the base settings, it is not a new saved setting. So when selecting the Original Profile after being on the (modified), you will get the exact settings which you had before the modification.

I hope this helps.

 

[rich apollo]

So let me make sure I have this all straight.

Include all RGB and CMYK Tagged Source Profiles gets you what you want.

Include all Profiles triggers a conversion?

How are you determining that a conversion is taking place? I have an idea, but I made be off track.

Also, you said that this is a RGB workflow, but then you said that CMYK colors (like K100) are changing. I'm a little confused.

If you set the PDF Standard to PDF/X-4 with No Conversion, the Profile Inclusion Policy is set to Include all RGB and CMYK Tagged Source Profiles and is grayed out. In other words, they can't change it.

 

[sigurarm]

Sorry how late I am replying. I thought I would get an email if someone replied.

@pcmodem:
The profile is made inside InDesign and saved there.
One of the main problem is that when the profile shows up with All Profiles on and we switch to Include All RGB.. and get (Modified) it is not enough to click on the original to get the original settings. It switches back to the All Profile settings. On top of that it shows the wrong settings in the Summary at the bottom.

@rich appollo:
In our RGB workflow we are working with InDesign and/or Illustrator files that are in CMYK. But the images are in RGB. This profile, Include All RGB and Tagged Source CMYK Profiles keeps the CMYK parts of the file like fills and type at their numeric values. Actual conversion of the RGB images takes place at the printery according to the print profiles the printery uses.

When we make a PDF and the All Profiles is (wrongly) selected the values for the CMYK parts gets split/converted into totally different values. The worst part is that black turns to values like 70, 79, 67, 84.

Anyway, I want to ask the other guys further about this. They are from the printing industry while I am from an ad agency. They know more about the technical things but we at the agencies are the ones who face this problem.
The difference between PDF/X-4 and the custom profile is not that much but some of the changes they want in is because this profile is used both for newspapers and regular offset printing. Also, they have seen problems using the jpg compression and want to use zip compression to prevent

Thanks for the replies so far.

 

[pcmodem]

So this is a hit or miss type of thing?

Try Saving the profile with a new name having the correct settings. Perhaps there is something cached someplace causing the problem.

 

[Possumgal]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but if you use this same job options setting a lot, couldn't you save it as a regular PDF Preset so people could just select it when they export to PDF? If you set it up without having a document open, it should be available for any document.

Modifying a setting from within a document is not as stable. If you set up a new preset, it should stay put.

 

[sigurarm]

Thanks for your replies.

@pcmodem: Yes, this is hit or miss. We havn't seen any pattern in the behaviour. Just that it started to behave like this in ID version 5.0 or 5.5.

@Possumgal: We have this profie set as a preset. We have tried both inside Library and ~/Library. The preset works perfectly for Illustrator all the time. It is just InDesign which is bothering us.

I am going to try some more on my own and see if I can get any closer to solving this.

 

[pcmodem]

I have read your first post again and I maybe assuming something but would like to validate my assumption. You didn't say if the PDF creation is all being done from the same computer/Login . It also looks like you are thinking the PDF Profiles (modified or not) are controlled by the document. This is not the case, PDF profile settings are controlled on a per computer basis. So if you have 3 different users on 3 different computers, the settings showing are based on what the user last did when exporting a PDF, not based on how the document was previously exported.

I hope this helps.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Could it be that the file (indesign document) uses an ICC that is not available on the other systems? To me it sounds strange to try to include the PDF settings in the InDesign document. The standard procedure is to set colour settings. Then open InDesign file third export (if at a service provider) See VIGC.org strongly recommend the free output essentials plug in (VIGC Output Essentials).

Now if one computer has the icf set to europe prepress 3, and they work with an InDesign file this file will have assigned Fogra 39 and AdobeRGB. The same file is opened in on a computer with SWOP and sRGB then the default profiles will missmatch as will the colour. I always thought that the PDF setting were machine speciffic NOT document speciffic.

 

[sigurarm]

Thanks both of you, pcmodem and Lukas.

The odd thing is that like one of the guys testing this experienced today while setting up a new mac and Loaded this setting. Soon as he wants to export the setting has switched over to All profiles.
The reason I thought previous files could maybe be confusing InDesign is because this switch can happen in the middle of the day without any warning. But I am sure you are right in the respect that it is last export which comes up next – or it should be that way.

The group supplies the pdf job option along with color settings file for Photoshop (csf) and the ISOcoated_v2_300_eci.icc file. The RGB used is AdobeRGB (1998). Then, usually Bridge is used to synchronize the CC or CS6 suite.

The search for the reason continues. I am meeting the group next week but got a mail from one from the group so I decided to pop in.

Thanks so far!

 

[sigurarm]

The latest development in this case is that the pdf job option starts to break after the color management is tweaked. So we have the what element. Why is still under investigation and how to mend should follow.

 

[maas]

When you open up the PDF in Acrobat Pro and open "output preview" what is the transparency blend space as stated at the bottom of the output preview window?, is it sRGB?