Perfect Binding question

[Tech]

Hi Everyone,
I'm a bit confused right now why only a handful of printers has requirements for single page files setup and bleed on all 4 sides and most don't for books that are intended for perfect bound? After some research, it seems bleed into gutter and single page setup is meant for perfect binding technique that requires grinding/shaving off the binding side for glue. Is this due to older binding machinery or technique?

Thanks in advance.

 

[doubting_thomas]

Re: Perfect Binding question

We could do it either way, so I'm not sure. Probably depends on
the shop and their software, or possibly the preference of an operator.

 

[Tech]

Re: Perfect Binding question

Hi Thomas,
So the inside bleed and single page setup is essentially a preference and not a definite requirement? I browsed through a couple perfect bound books, it still makes no sense to have files setup as single page and bleed into what would be grind off for binding. If this is to prevent paper white from showing when the book is opened, one literally has to flatten the spine to see it. It just seems like a trivial practice.

 

[doubting_thomas]

Re: Perfect Binding question

Well, I'd go with whatever they're telling you to do when submitting files,
but it sounds like the design of the book may be completed at this point.
It might be required for a sort of safety area when the pages are trimmed
out before binding. You wouldn't see any white area on a perfectly trimmed
book, but there are rarely perfect print jobs in my experience. If the bleed
is included to the spine side on your pages nobody would probably know
if the trim is 1/64" - 1/32" off. If there was no bleed included you might
get a peak of white if this were the case. Remember that some production
facilities might be running the book 4 or 8 pages on a press sheet, then
folding the press sheet and placing a 3 sided trim on it in the end. If this
is the case, a little extra bleed to account for a safety area would come in
handy to the bindery operator. It's just a thought.

 

[Tech]

Re: Perfect Binding question

Yes, design of the book is finished at this point. The problem arise from a lack of communication, design failed to mention the use of bleed on a perfect bound title to production and we find ourselves backtracking... We are moving forward without readjusting the files, we'll accept the slight risk on not having gutter bleeds. It's not a difficult issue to fix, but we are out of time on schedule and the risk of error on binding is less of a concern at this stage.

Thanks for explaining/confirming the need for safety and not that we are doing something completely wrong.

 

[doubting_thomas]

Re: Perfect Binding question

Glad I could help

 

[zoran]

Re: Perfect Binding question

Don't you think that software companies could help with perfect bound seup in applications?
I've met many designers in my career and none was aware of 4 page trim because 99% of them use default setup, which happens to be facing pages, therefore no bleed in grind.

 

[Tech]

Re: Perfect Binding question

Hi Zoran,
The main issue isn't with apps, both Quark/Indy allows easy single page setup. The problem is really 3 levels: 1) lack of communication regarding file requirements between design and production 2) not all printers demands this type of setup as standard and hence this type of file setup is lost with many designers (including ours) and don't consider this a potential printing issue 3) out of time on schedule

 

[insanedave]

I know this is coming in a little bit late, but the answer on the printing(production) side is pretty simple. We can set our imposition software to not allow bleed on the spine, even if there is bleed included on the supplied file. Like you said, you would pretty much have to flatten the spine to see any white showing.

We do not demand that files be sent to us in a specific manner - although I can tell you that more and more printers would love to have the single page format. With the new printing impo software and workflow solutions, the pages flow right in where they are supposed to go. If a file is sent with "facing pages" or "spreads", our prepress dept will seperate into seperate pages most of the time. We try to keep eveybody happier that way. This does not only apply to perfect binding, but all jobs.

 

[jbbbarr]

I am also sorry for the late response, but it was explained to me years ago that the grind-off, usually .125, which is a .25 gutter flat, is required for better glue adhesion. Imagine if you did not roughen up the surface, thus creating even more surface area for the glue to adhere to, this would cause the final product to fall apart. This is not the case with PUR which is a process that fuses to the paper and theoretically needs no to little no grind.

Since there are more and more binders going the PUR route, especially the standalone guys, they can speed up the process and have fewer rejects because the pages are falling out. I usually let the page bleed .0625 into the spine, this just compensates for bad folding or other issues.

john

 

[chiefy]

impo controls the bleed

impo controls the bleed

ideally i would prefer single page setup for pur bound jobs but its unrealistic to expect most design companies to understand and setup the file correctly. Generally a saddle stiched job would not require bleed on the inner/spine but it is just easier for pdf files to be supplied with bleed on all sides and then the impo software will control the bleed and trim.
We leave a 1mm ink and varnish free area on all pur bound books now to improve the gluing.