Photoshop adjustments from Breathing Color to IJ Premium

[wisedoggs]

Hello! I work for a small gallery and giclee printing service. We battle through proofing giclee prints for a ton of original oil paintings, especially some with tons of saturated color brush marks. We have finally nailed down our MASTER files, but something has changed in the ink or canvas we use! We are working on Macs with Photoshop 6 into a Epson Stylus 9900 printer (Not proofing edition). We use Mirage RIP software, Epson OEM inks, and Breathing Color Lyve canvas. SOMETHING has slightly changed the colors/saturation recently, and we can not figure out what has changed. It may be the canvas, as the inks seem consistent. We have decided we are done with the flaking and inconsistency of BC canvas, and want to move to IJ PRemier. THe problem is it would be very impractical and costly to re-proof our huge hard drive of master files to a new canvas, and reprint a ton of test strips. Are there any standardized adjustments we can use to at least get close? For instance, we figured out that an adjustment of 23 in saturation and 6 in selective color>yellow>magenta+6 helped transfer everything from Epson Sxh canvas to Breathing Color. Has anyone discovered an across-the-board adjustment to at least get us in the right ballpark from BC to IJ? PLEASE HELP! ANd thanks in advance!

 

[rich apollo]

I don't think you're going to find any recipes for moving to another substrate. If you change the material you're printing on, you have to calibrate and build new profiles.

As to the "slight change" you're seeing, could it indicate that it's time to relinearize?

 

[wisedoggs]

Thank you, Rich. I will check into it! We were hoping if all the files were mastered for one medium, and the other medium was consistent, one set of compensatory changes might get everything ready, since the only variable should be the new medium, and after adjusted for, it should be consistent.

 

[wisedoggs]

Linearization

Linearization

QUick question... it sounds like some RIPs handle the linearization, would my DTG MIrage RIP handle it? I can't find answer on their page.

 

[rich apollo]

You're underestimating the effect of the substrate. Changing the substrate MAY cause only negligible changes in output, or it may cause drastically different output.

You talked about the images being "mastered for one medium." Are you manipulating the images to get the output you want?

Also, what kind of lighting are you viewing the prints under?

Linearization is one of the core functions of a RIP; Mirage should be no different. Do you have a spectrophotometer?

 

[Correct Color]

Wisedoggs,

No, you can't relinearize with Mirage.

The reason being that Mirage is not a RIP in the true sense. It's really just a glorified Photoshop plug-in, and it only works with RGB profiles. It gives you no control over the printer's dot generation.

You say you're running a 9900, so if you bought the Mirage profiling module, you can make ICC profiles with Mirage using the built in Spectroproofer. The only problem is that you're limited to using the Epson-supplied media settings as the "base" settings for your profiles. And those settings seldom give you ideal ink restrictions and limits for third party media.

Also there's no way -- making RGB profiles for a CMYKOG device -- to linearize the machine before profile creation.

However, what it sounds to me like you're saying is that you've got a huge catalogue of images that you've painstakingly modified to print on one particular media, and now you want to alter that catalogue to print on another media.

Is that correct?

If it is, I'll just break it to you bluntly: All that effort was a waste of time. And the last thing you want to ever do is do that again.

What you should be doing is creating images that are the images you want, then profiling your printer to get every bit of its capability out of whatever media you use to print, and then printing to that printer profile on that media.

Then if your printer drifts -- not really all that common of an occurrence with your type of printer, and personally I always recommend in case of a drift re-profiling and not re-linearization -- or if you change media or buy a new printer or whatever else...

you just reprofile and print to the new profile.

(Edited to add: I should add that I meant to point out that 'profiling your printer to get every bit of its capability out of whatever media you use to print' will require a real RIP. For while you can make ICC profiles in Mirage, you cannot take full control of the printer, thus you can't maximize its capabilities prior to profile creation.)



Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[wisedoggs]

Wisedoggs,

No, you can't relinearize with Mirage.

The reason being that Mirage is not a RIP in the true sense. It's really just a glorified Photoshop plug-in, and it only works with RGB profiles. It gives you no control over the printer's dot generation.

You say you're running a 9900, so if you bought the Mirage profiling module, you can make ICC profiles with Mirage using the built in Spectroproofer. The only problem is that you're limited to using the Epson-supplied media settings as the "base" settings for your profiles. And those settings seldom give you ideal ink restrictions and limits for third party media.

Also there's no way -- making RGB profiles for a CMYKOG device -- to linearize the machine before profile creation.

However, what it sounds to me like you're saying is that you've got a huge catalogue of images that you've painstakingly modified to print on one particular media, and now you want to alter that catalogue to print on another media.

Is that correct?

If it is, I'll just break it to you bluntly: All that effort was a waste of time. And the last thing you want to ever do is do that again.

What you should be doing is creating images that are the images you want, then profiling your printer to get every bit of its capability out of whatever media you use to print, and then printing to that printer profile on that media.

Then if your printer drifts -- not really all that common of an occurrence with your type of printer, and personally I always recommend in case of a drift re-profiling and not re-linearization -- or if you change media or buy a new printer or whatever else...

you just reprofile and print to the new profile.

(Edited to add: I should add that I meant to point out that 'profiling your printer to get every bit of its capability out of whatever media you use to print' will require a real RIP. For while you can make ICC profiles in Mirage, you cannot take full control of the printer, thus you can't maximize its capabilities prior to profile creation.)



Mike Adams
Correct Color

Thank you both for the response! We DO NOT have the spectroproofer for the 9900, but are looking at getting a handheld, such as i1 pro. That makes sense about the linearization. Thanks. Well, if I read this correctly you are saying make the machine force the needed color shifts via ICC profile instead of photoshop adjustments. That would be great, and hopefully one ICC profile compensating for the shifts would make everything reproduce well. We are caught between a rock and a hard place... the canvas we have been using is unreliable between batches for consistency, and the new canvas is amazing, but will cause saturation shifts if unaltered. I am going to take this all in, and see what we can do. We do have access to and i1 Pro Gretag Macbeth handheld. I know it is not the quality of the built-in spectroproofer, but will it do the job on printed targets, and help get the outputs to match?

 

[DYP]

Once you get you color management setup properly (profile) for your new media you can try saving all adjustments, that you need to get back to an acceptable print, in adjustment layers in PS. You can then apply these adjustment layers to your other files. This might be close enough without having to adjust every image.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

wisedoggs, do you really *have to* match the old print results on the new media? Will there be side by side comparisons and an expectation that both “look the same”?

Or is it simply enough that an image “looks as good as it can” on the new media, even if this means that there are differences between the old and new media results?


Stephen Marsh

 

[wisedoggs]

Thanks for the help. As far as how close we can get, and to Stephen, here is the tricky part.... these are high-end, $1200-$3500 giclee reproductions of the work of famous local artists. It may be doubtful they will hang side by side, as they end up in houses across the country, but there is an expectation of consistency for limited run repros. The limited edition prints and artist proofs should match, and we are worried about opening ourselves up for a lawsuit if a customer felt it did not match the original well enough. Above that, I guess it is just adherence to what the industry strives for, consistency. We will try to get as close as we can, but at the same time, we have limited funds, so my boss doesn't go hog wild on expensive equipment. We try to make due with what we an get, so no expensive spectroproofers, etc thus far. I am in the middle, trying to get good prints, but also not having all the equipment I feel I could use. Now I am fighting with X Rite. we have iProfiler, two dongles with various levels of licensing for their proofing software, an iDisplay that we own, and a borrowed eye-pro Gretag Macbeth. I will try to use these to bridge the gap and have the ICC profile do the heavy lifting of making the colors match up automatically. I am arguing with them about licensing, because we have such a piecemeal of equipment, and it lets me go through the entire process of scanning and creating profiles, but then it WILL NOT LET ME SAVE THE PROFILES. I wasted a ton of time hand scanning 2033 targets just to not be able to save it. X Rite said we didn't have Publish license, yet he only checked serial number on eye-pro, and I think it is on Dongle, and iProfiler shows green checks on the licensing for CMYK and RGB. Have to wait till X Rite is back from Holiday break. Anyways, once I can create profiles, should I scan targets on canvas AFTER coating with our laminate, or before? After seems to make sense, as the laminate seems to affect visual color saturation. I was able to scan a small patch set and use the measure function in iProfiler to show some differences between the canvasses...

http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo1/wisedoggs/BCgtIJ_DIFFERENCES_zps5f75541b.jpg

 

[wisedoggs]

Here is a closer shot of the text...

 

[Correct Color]

So lemme get this right...

You're charging your clients $1200 to $3500 per image and your boss wants to produce those images ON THE CHEAP?

512 - 468 - 0010.

Please feel free to give your boss that number and I'll explain to him very politely why he's an idiot.

I don't like to pitch on here, not sure I've ever even done it.

But in this case, you're seeing all the signposts, but you don't understand the language they're written in; you're listening to a bunch of people telling you a bunch of competing things, and you don't know enough to know who is and who isn't full of shit.

And your boss has spent a fortune -- an absolute fortune! -- saving money.

You need Color By Correct Color wisedogs.

I really do hate to pitch here, but you're right in my wheelhouse and this is what you need.

(Just a couple things though: That screencap you posted is normal. It doesn't prove or disprove anything. And if you have licenses in your dongles, and someone at X-Rite was checking for permissions in your i1, then of course they wouldn't find them...

However, keep in mind that it's these same people who don't know their device from their dongle you are then going to count on to make your "high-end" operation work for your clients.)



Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[DYP]

I think you are about to find out which is more expensive in the long run. Not have good color management tools and not doing proper profiling vers.having good color management tools and doing proper profiling.

 

[DCurry]

I've read enough of Correct Color's posts over the years to know that he knows what he's talking about. If I were in your boss's shoes and getting that kind of money for what are essentially inkjet prints, I'd hire him in a second.

 

[rich apollo]

There are better places to save money.

 

[wisedoggs]

There are better places to save money.

Thanks for the responses, and I agree. The printer is high-end, so although it is inkjet I would say it is a bit dismissive to make them sound substandard. Giclee prints for art are usually done on a high end inkjet. I think we have solved the problems, I finally got him to borrow an EyeOne Pro, and we profiled the actual printer output and scanner. I know have a profile that seems to be making the images consistent form the old canvas to the knew, and they are turning out great. Yes, it has been an issue getting him to purchase what we need but I think he has seen the light, to a degree. I am not sure I could get him to go along on Color Correct, though. IN regards to the prints, when I say they cost thousands of dollars, that does not mean we get all that money, we get cut from each from the artist, but the artist's are the primary benefactors. We also sell some of the prints here.

 

[Correct Color]

wisedoggs,

I think we have solved the problems, I finally got him to borrow an EyeOne Pro, and we profiled the actual printer output and scanner. I know have a profile that seems to be making the images consistent form the old canvas to the knew, and they are turning out great. Yes, it has been an issue getting him to purchase what we need but I think he has seen the light, to a degree.

Well, no. He hasn't.

And believe me, I see this and hear this all the time. But frankly, borrowing an i1 doesn't make you a profiling expert any more than borrowing some paint brushes makes you Picasso.

Understand that I'm not sure who you think was dismissing inkjet prints. It certainly wasn't me. Fact is that right now, there isn't a way to make a better single image than with an inkjet printer. And profiling large-format inkjet printers and creating color workflows for them is what I do for a living.

I can promise you that given what I've read here, I've got a pretty good idea of just what you're doing and just what kind of images you're turning out. And I can tell you without question that if I was one of your clients, I had to pay that kind of money for the quality of image I'd be getting, I would not be happy.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[Correct Color]

I've read enough of Correct Color's posts over the years to know that he knows what he's talking about. If I were in your boss's shoes and getting that kind of money for what are essentially inkjet prints, I'd hire him in a second.

Well thanks.

I appreciate that.

 

[wisedoggs]

Well thanks.

I appreciate that.

I checked out the correct color page and testimonials, etc. Saw the side-by-side comparisons. I will see what I can do about getting the boss to spring for something.

 

[wisedoggs]

wisedoggs,



Well, no. He hasn't.

And believe me, I see this and hear this all the time. But frankly, borrowing an i1 doesn't make you a profiling expert any more than borrowing some paint brushes makes you Picasso.

Understand that I'm not sure who you think was dismissing inkjet prints. It certainly wasn't me. Fact is that right now, there isn't a way to make a better single image than with an inkjet printer. And profiling large-format inkjet printers and creating color workflows for them is what I do for a living.

I can promise you that given what I've read here, I've got a pretty good idea of just what you're doing and just what kind of images you're turning out. And I can tell you without question that if I was one of your clients, I had to pay that kind of money for the quality of image I'd be getting, I would not be happy.


Mike Adams
Correct Color

The quality of the images is great, and we make the colors consistent, but we want the process to be more automatic, instead of having to make adjustments. I appreciate your help, but it seems like some of these comments have a derogatory tilt.