plate cylinder drifting forward on it's own?

[Kaoticor]

Very odd... That really sounds like a problem with the clamps, but you mentioned that Heidelberg already rebuilt them. Just a thought in case the technicians were not thorough:

Too much pressure on the rear clamp can "pull" the plate. Also check and see if the front clamp is clean, otherwise it might not grip the plate good enough.

One more question: Are you seeing any slurring or doubling in the affected unit?

 

[Al Ferrari]

It would be a good idea to read the original post with care. Bill, the OP, is reporting that the drift is in the forward direction. So slipping from the lead clamp from too severe a pull from the tail clamp does not fit the reported problem.

I am eager to learn if the lubrication made any improvement.

Al

 

[Bill Rothwell]

plate cylinder drifting forward on it's own?

Today the second shift pressman reported to me that in fact the cylinder did not move and held it's position last night. He was very positive about it because the press has had this problem since it was about a year old and this is the first time it didn't happen. However, I am not willing to blow the horn of triumph quit yet, until i get this response over several jobs. (must be the skeptic in me) it didn't move on me during the run all day today(it was a running press), however, usually the cylinder drift happens right after you start running an then settles in after a couple of moves. There is another job going up tonight, I asked the pressman to leave me a note for tomorrow to see if the cylinder holds. As far as the clamps go, this problem existed before heidelberg rebuilt the clamps and immediately after they rebuilt the clamps. I'm not discounting that this could be the problem, but it does look likely that it is not the problem. I always keep an open mind until I know the problem is fixed. Again I need to see repetition of the cylinder not moving before I feel more comfortable that this is the answer. Once again everyone, Thank you for all your input! Your knowledge, expertise and willingness to help me may have figured out the problem! I appreciate it!
Bill

 

[Al Ferrari]

Bill, I am trying to accept the explanation junker1984 posted on 1/25 7:25 PM and I can almost make it work, but only if I make the assumption that on that press's affected units the cylinders "always" need to be rotated forward during the make-ready, so that before the lubrication, this would be the adjustment that was not quite being achieved and resulted in forward movement after some impressions. Do I have that right?

Al

 

[Kaoticor]

It would be a good idea to read the original post with care. Bill, the OP, is reporting that the drift is in the forward direction. So slipping from the lead clamp from too severe a pull from the tail clamp does not fit the reported problem.

I am eager to learn if the lubrication made any improvement.

Al

Yes, but that could also be subjective on what someone's definition of "forward" is

Hope your fix carries in to your next job Bill! Let us know how it goes

 

[Al Ferrari]

Hoping for a positive report from Bill.

But I have been more impressed by the junker1984's post of 1/25 7:25 PM the more I have tough about it. So I decided to do a search for any similar posts by anyone on line and I found a recent one in another forum:

SM 102 10P register movement - Color Printing Forum

by LLS northwest uk 11-9-2011 6:09PM.

Unfortunately it does not generate any further discussion on that forum, but the important thing for us here in our thread is that the basis for junker1984's recommendation is well known by others, and again I want to apologize publicly for my initial skepticism.

I come to this forum to share, sometimes to teach, but mostly to learn.

Al

 

[Bill Rothwell]

plate cylinder drifting forward on it's own?

Today I ran two jobs and the cylinder held rock solid!! Second shift pressman said the cylinder held for him last night as well. Feeling pretty good about the results! Thank you so much for passing on your knowledge and support junker 1984!!!! So, this afternoon I had a little time and greased the third unit (which is the other unit we were having trouble with)with the same procedure as the sixth unit. Told the second shift pressman to leave me a note to see how the unit reacts during his shift. I am hopeful that on Monday our problems are over!!! But, we will see over time.
Al, thanks for the thread to that other forum. I saw that same thread before I posted my press problem on printplanet. I found it interesting, but it seem to have to many variables in the posts to correct the problem and decided to post on Printplanet to get more input. Although you are right, it was mentioned to grease the cylinder. For me, Printplanet forums have always offered some great insight from very knowledgeable people into the heart of the problem that has been posted. To try to answer your question about how the cylinder works I would have to defer to junker1984's post. Junker1984 explained it to me and then I was able to look at what he was talking about in the press book. It is difficult to explain how the circumference movement works with out you seeing the break down of the cylinder out of the book. I can tell you that it works off of a helical gear that moves laterally to produce a Circumferential plate movement. The way it works is pretty ingenious. Hope this helps to answer your question. Thank you everyone for your thoughts and support!!! I'll let you know how things go on Monday. BTW, I will be working with a heidelberg Tec. on Monday installing a refined cylinder jacket on our 4/c perfector. Looking forward to learning something new! One thing about this business, IT IS NEVER BORING!!!
Thanks again, Bill

 

[Al Ferrari]

Bill,

I have accepted junker1984's explanation for the cause of the problem you had been having, and I predict you will find that the cylinder on the third unit will also hold rock solid. But it seems you are more of a skeptic than I was, since you're implementing junker1984's suggestion one unit at a time. Or is it that you bought into my earlier misguided post where I said that lubrication was not what was needed? ;-)

But your success with junker1984's solution leaves a very important question unanswered:

Why did the Heidelberg repairmen who rebuilt the clamps, or anyone else from Heidelberg who you may have contacted about the problem during the years you have experienced the problem not know about this cause for the problem???

I urge you to take the matter up with the tec that will be installing the refined cylinder jacket on Monday and ask that he run the matter up the flag pole to service management.

Al

 

[junker1984]

Al, Sometimeswe tend to make things more difficult than they need to be. It was long ago that one of my mentors stressed to me the first rule to remember is "keep it simple, stupid". The guys in service at Heidelberg have so much more automation and technology to keep up on these days, it may not have been foremost to remember that #1 rule.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Steve,

I too can be as generous as you in regards to the plate clamp technicians or any other single service individual for that matter. But not with the entire Heidelberg service organization. Bill reports living with the problem for something like two years, and went back to the Heidelberg service organization when the rebuild of the clamps turned out not to fix the problem.

They charge a good price for the "service" they provide and in addition they have access to the huge engineering staff that designs and tests the equipment from initial prototypes to final shipped product. To my way of thinking, it is totally unacceptable that the management of the service organization simply could not find the motivation to explore the company's resources to find a solution. We are talking about one of their six unit 40 inch machines, not one of their duplicators.

As I pointed out in an earlier post (01-27-2012, 08:56 AM), others in the industry besides yourself are aware of the importance that greasing those helical gears has to the response to rotational adjustment signal from the console. Heidelberg Service had a long time to put two and two together to solve Bill's problem, but did not do it.

Al

 

[junker1984]

Most definitely, Al. Hope the management at Bill's print plant can get some satisfaction. Service and/or parts credits would be something I would be looking for. Steve

 

[Al Ferrari]

I wonder what the small fine print in the original purchase contract for the machine has to say about available service, in or out of warrantee. Ditto for the ongoing service policies.

Al

 

[Quickmaster60]

electrical issue

electrical issue

Please explain how an electrical malfunction could cause this problem.

Al

i worked for heidelberg for 23 years, 10 as an electrician. it could be either the pot or the motor. sometimes the pots will act eratic and cause the motor to move on its own. it cn also be that there is oil in the motor. i would replace the pot and remove the motor and clean it out.

 

[Al Ferrari]

Thanks for the response Quickmaster60. But if you read the entire tread you will see that the issue has pretty much been identified as having to do with lack of grease in the circumferential adjustment of units 3 and 6, and that I am taking your old employer to task.

Al

 

[Bill Rothwell]

Hi Guy's, Today the press ran flawless. No cylinder drifting, first time in 7 yrs. Both units (3/6) giving us trouble held rock solid! The tec form heidelberg was in today to put on a refined cylinder jacket on out perfector and I spoke to him about our problem on the 6/c. (I will write up the procedure that was used to install the cylinder jacket soon if any one wants to know how to do this job) The tec said that there is 9 presses state side and another 2 dozen presses world wide with this problem and this is the first time that anyone has had any positive results curing the problem. (Thanks, Steve. I showed the tec your information) In fact he said next week they were going to put all new grippers in a press with the same problems, this is after they just replaced all the helical gears, the outer gears, springs,bushings, pins....everything on each unit! He said that they still have the same problem with all units on this particular press. Thinking about Steve's advice, I asked him if they had coated all the parts they installed with a good synthetic grease and he said, no there completely dry as specified by engineering. In fact he said that all the newer presses do not have the zerk fitting at the plate cylinder anymore, there is just an open hole that the engineers say will get oil from the dripping bath. I told him that my thoughts were how is the oil bath going to deliver oil in the gear if it is spinning at 12000 iph and even if anything got into the gear, i would think that through the Centrifugal force generated, it would just push the oil out of the gear and he agreed. He was very much impressed with what has happened with our press and was going to call engineering to discuss greasing the other affected presses. I'll keep you posted if anything happens. So thank you to everyone for helping out with this problem!!! Your the best!!!Bill

 

[junker1984]

I'm not sure where this might be going with the response that this is an isolated incident affecting a limited number of machines during a non-specified time period. Seems I've been doing this repair all over the country since I've been wrenching on these machines (note last four numbers in my screen name). It has always seemed to me that no one press model year has had the cylinder movement bind up any more than another, and it also seems that it happens after 100 million or more, thereby, in my mind it is just common wear and tear. Good Printing to All! Steve

 

[Bill Rothwell]

Steve, what can I say, you saved the day! I passed all the info. you supplied to me along to the heidelberg tec and explained that it was you who gave me the info. It's befalling that you know about this problem and have had much experience dealing with it but heidelberg seems totally in the dark about it? Either way I so appreciate that you helped me out! The press is not drifting so far. And like I said, this is the first time in seven years that it has not drifted. Thanks again, Bill

 

[Al Ferrari]

Congratulations Bill! But don't stop with those two units. Grease that same fitting on the other four units, and repeat the treatment at least twice a year on all six units.

Al

 

[rbailleu]

Steve, what can I say, you saved the day! I passed all the info. you supplied to me along to the heidelberg tec and explained that it was you who gave me the info. It's befalling that you know about this problem and have had much experience dealing with it but heidelberg seems totally in the dark about it? Either way I so appreciate that you helped me out! The press is not drifting so far. And like I said, this is the first time in seven years that it has not drifted. Thanks again, Bill

I find that very few of the heidelberg guys are good at trouble shooting tricky problems they let all the old guys go and now there are a bunch of newbies around.

 

[Bill Rothwell]

Thanks Al,
We are on the same page Al.....already greased the other units and I was thinking once a month squirt in each unit.