Pressmen and DMAXX

[curiosity]

Copying and pasting your first 11 lines, then adding 2 more...was that an attention test to see if I'd read it all?
Nice.
And like I said previously, "...our pressmen have been invaluable to our overall printing process." Does that sound like we don't listen to our lowly pressmen? But of course, that's only when they join the conversation. I'd like to think there are pressmen that can and will openly discuss any press related matter. However, that hasn't been my experience.
Close to the chest is the norm...as if there job is threatened by someone who asks questions.
As for consulting...who knows...maybe we'll get to that point and reach out to you.

 

[curiosity]

My apologies for the out of order reply....I was addressing Turbo.

 

[turbotom1052]

Ok im going to address both Eric and Curiosity in this one post. First Eric... I dont feel that packaging printing is the best example for safely running thick ink films. The reason being is that often, and I stress the work often, packaging printing consists of mostly PMS colors or custom flat colors that stand alone on the sheet. One of the many problems I associate with laying down thick ink films is that a single layer of thick ink, will usually pose no problems when it comes to setoff and blocking when done with all the proper precautions in place. Its when you layer multiple heavy ink films on top of each other that things start going wrong. This multiple layering of 4 colors as is the case with lots of commercial printing applications has many looking for them ultra dense rich black builds, that can easily push the envelope of safe printing. That being said there would be my first suggestion to Curiosity for consideration. There are some industry standards that need to be adhered to when printing them so loved rich blacks. These standards are interpreted by by many to be negotiable when its convenient to do so. I would suggest that once your company adopts a set of standards that is capable of producing setoff free printing of rich blacks in ALL conditions that you dont deviate, even when encouraged by a customer to "give me more ink". I hesitate to even offer any numbers because I firmly believe that this issue needs to be addressed on a case by case basis, under the guidance of a pressroom pro. Just to name a couple of variables would include. Type of paper, inline aqueous coating or not, quality of the paper and pigment load of the ink, and even the position of the above mentioned rich black images on the sheet. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that the placement of the image on a sheet has much to do with the images rick black portions ability to be resistant to setoff. Its all about weight distribution!!! An image pushing the limits of TIDs placed near the middle of the sheet has better weight distribution around the perimeter of the rick black area, than does an image with high TIDs placed very close to to any of the sheets edges. Now be honest... how many pre press guys do you have working for you that posses that level of detail??? This is the sort of scenario that sets off a red flag to a fully competent press pro, or in the absence of that level of experience, a fully competent pressroom supervisor. It still boggles the mind when I think how many companies will have a dedicated supervisor for every dept within the company except for the pressroom, which in most cases is the highest cost center under your roof. Not only is the pressroom the highest cost center but its also the dept. that produces what your customer will actually see and judge your company by. This concludes my lesson for the day on safe running of thick ink films. My fingers are sore and im getting hungry for breakfast. Hope ive offered some insight Curiosity that will be useful.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

.. I dont feel that packaging printing is the best example for safely running thick ink films. The reason being is that often, and I stress the work often, packaging printing consists of mostly PMS colors or custom flat colors that stand alone on the sheet.

One of the many problems I associate with laying down thick ink films is that a single layer of thick ink, will usually pose no problems when it comes to setoff and blocking when done with all the proper precautions in place. Its when you layer multiple heavy ink films on top of each other that things start going wrong. This multiple layering of 4 colors as is the case with lots of commercial printing applications has many looking for them ultra dense rich black builds, that can easily push the envelope of safe printing. .

My specific experience with offset packaging printing was with CMYK plus a spot colour. Also it was on a web press and it ran with EB inks, so set off was not an issue for us.

I would not think anyone should print 4 layers of ink. Maybe it is tried but it does not seem like a good idea. I think there should be a limit of only two layers of ink at the most in anyone spot when wet trapping.

 

[turbotom1052]

My specific experience with offset packaging printing was with CMYK plus a spot colour. Also it was on a web press and it ran with EB inks, so set off was not an issue for us.

I would not think anyone should print 4 layers of ink. Maybe it is tried but it does not seem like a good idea. I think there should be a limit of only two layers of ink at the most in anyone spot when wet trapping.

in commercial printing it is not at all unusual to see some rich black builds come in at a totals approaching 300 %. My feeling is that you MIGHT get away with that zonally total ink, if your at the very least inline coating the job, and if you have strongly pigmented ink. It should go without saying, but I will say it anyway, that this is assuming that you have fully competent press staffing and decent equipment with a fully functioning powdering unit. A pretty good indicator that you are exceeding the safe TOTAL dot percentages would be if your sheets are setting off from the very top of freshly printed pile. A typical scenario would be the blame game that goes on when a pre press dept exceeds the safe numbers and then the pressroom gets blamed for the inevitable setoff or blocking issues. My answer to management whenever this goes on is to ask them if we should run the job racking in stacks of 1?

 

[curiosity]

Turbo,
From my OP:
So what negative impact might that have on our press if we adopt DMAXX as our standard?

I'm not asking about the separations (or paper, or coating or....). TID is on me. To be frank, our pressmen don't even know what TID is! (or are they just keeping it close to their chest? - geesh) And yes, before you say it, I too think that's abysmal. Our prepress personnel, I'm grateful to announce, actually do know about placement, which they learned from our pressmen. They listened. They learned. Unfortunately, it's not always a two way street.

I said it before, and I'll repeat it again...I have confidence that our process controls are fairly tight. Our maintenance regiment on press has been called "excessive" by more than just a few. And most of us here at this company agree.

Lithocrafter's response about "ink fly" directly addressed my OP. Ink misting throughout the press is a scary scenario. What a nightmare. Can't imagine how to deal with that one. And honestly, if true, I'll be looking for alternatives to extended gamut printing, which I know there are more options. Currently, I'm employing methods that don't require new materials...yet.

So y'all know, I'm looking for answers elsewhere as well, and I will post any revelations as they are revealed. I checked out that list of XCMYK printers that tested with Idealliance. So happens that Komori was on that list, and we use their presses. So I reached out to them and a few more on that list too.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello curiosity,


My advice to you - is arrange a visit from "Gordo"

Question: Do any of your Printers/Pressmen, have any Printing Industry Qualifications ??


Regards, Alois

 

[turbotom1052]

Turbo,
From my OP:
So what negative impact might that have on our press if we adopt DMAXX as our standard?

I'm not asking about the separations (or paper, or coating or....). TID is on me. To be frank, our pressmen don't even know what TID is! (or are they just keeping it close to their chest? - geesh) And yes, before you say it, I too think that's abysmal. Our prepress personnel, I'm grateful to announce, actually do know about placement, which they learned from our pressmen. They listened. They learned. Unfortunately, it's not always a two way street.

I said it before, and I'll repeat it again...I have confidence that our process controls are fairly tight. Our maintenance regiment on press has been called "excessive" by more than just a few. And most of us here at this company agree.

Lithocrafter's response about "ink fly" directly addressed my OP. Ink misting throughout the press is a scary scenario. What a nightmare. Can't imagine how to deal with that one. And honestly, if true, I'll be looking for alternatives to extended gamut printing, which I know there are more options. Currently, I'm employing methods that don't require new materials...yet.

So y'all know, I'm looking for answers elsewhere as well, and I will post any revelations as they are revealed. I checked out that list of XCMYK printers that tested with Idealliance. So happens that Komori was on that list, and we use their presses. So I reached out to them and a few more on that list too.

I can assure you that if your pressman knew what TID was some of them would be holding you to it if your company deviates too far from industry standards. I say some of them because there are always a mix of sheep in with the batch of leaders. Its the sheep that just blindly OBEY and take the spankings whenever a job gets screwed up on press as a result of something they had no control over. If you have guys working for you that hold back knowledge and refuse to openly contribute to the team effort then I think they should be shown the door. As far as damage to your press other than making a mess that can be cleaned off I can think of nothing.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Turbotom,


Question: which is it to be 1) TID or 2) SID or 3) IFT , ? In Europe we use the term "Solid Ink Density" which is term used throughtout the Printing World including the USA !!


Regards, Alois

 

[turbotom1052]

Thanks Turbo.
Although we are pretty tight overall, there continues to be rough spots when anyone (namely myself) suggest testing different approaches to printing. We can talk about it, but when a pressman says I wouldn't do it, but literally clams up when asked why, I feel that is less than desirable in a professional workplace. Then again, maybe their response is due to lack of knowledge...even with 30+ years of experience, which I find to be unfortunate. In unrelated queries, our pressmen have been invaluable to our overall printing process. And that is why I am reaching out to others. Regardless, the tests continue and the results are promising. I imagine that if we were to adopt some sort of extended gamut printing, our pressmen's day to day responsibilities would also require some adjustments.
Exactly what those are, I do not know. And again, that's why I'm asking.

If you have the patience in sharing any variables of which you hesitated to disclose originally, I assure you that your comments will be well received, and attentively!

Its my strong belief that every once in awhile management needs to humble themselves enough to step out of their roles as managers, and try to see themselves through the eyes of their employees. I dont know you or your company Curiosity, but I will say that ive seen the following enough times to consider it commonplace. Pressroom personal are held to the fire for issues that have nothing to do with them, and everything to do with poor choices on managements part. These choices can be anything form over scheduling work and rushing jobs through the pressroom so as to avoid costly overtime, or continuously looking to buy sub par consumables in order to get costs under control. Often these practices result in a loss of quality control that gets blamed on the pressroom. Having to work under them sort of conditions is a real moral killer, and I can assure you that if your company is anything like ive just described there are pressroom personal gathering at the local watering holes to vent their frustrations with management amongst each other. You won't see them here venting because unless they can be totally anonymous they are in fear for their jobs. The only reason im here doing this is because ive worked on both ends. Ive managed pressrooms and run presses for the better part of 40 years. Im now retired so its safe for me to say these things.
A typical scenario ive seen far too many times would be that a customer bounces a job for XYZ reason that has nothing to do with poor pressman ship. Of course a meeting is called to give out either verbal or written warnings ect. After a good chewing out some conclusions are drawn as to what went wrong and a new SOP is put into place to prevent this sorta thing from ever happening again. This new SOP is often nothing more than a band aid on a gunshot wound. The new SOP proves to be too time consuming, or cuts into profits and is in short order abandoned, and things return to the way they were. Given all that, is it any wonder that press crews might not be very forthcoming with offering suggestions to improve things. If anyone in management reading this recognizes themselves or their company then the question becomes what are YOU going to do about it???

 

[turbotom1052]

Copying and pasting your first 11 lines, then adding 2 more...was that an attention test to see if I'd read it all?
Nice.
And like I said previously, "...our pressmen have been invaluable to our overall printing process." Does that sound like we don't listen to our lowly pressmen? But of course, that's only when they join the conversation. I'd like to think there are pressmen that can and will openly discuss any press related matter. However, that hasn't been my experience.
Close to the chest is the norm...as if there job is threatened by someone who asks questions.
As for consulting...who knows...maybe we'll get to that point and reach out to you.

The additional 2 lines was not a test to see if your paying attention it was an edit gone awry, that resulted in a second post.

 

[turbotom1052]

Turbotom,


Question: which is it to be 1) TID or 2) SID or 3) IFT , ? In Europe we use the term "Solid Ink Density" which is term used throughtout the Printing World including the USA !!


Regards, Alois

Alois I think all the acronyms apply here. When I refer to the things that the pressman has no control over it comes down to whats on the plate. If rich blacks total dot percentages approach the 300% range I think your flirting with disaster under many scenarios. The point of most of my rant Alois is that the 300% number needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Many people in upper management are not comfortable with things being on a case by case basis. This case by case basis requires a higher level of craftsmanship that usually equates to $$$. Typical management in our current print environment want to assign a set of SOPs that work under all conditions. Its my belief that the technology is not yet there to run every job to the very same SOPs ignoring the variables. Many company principles are "tricked" into believing from press salesman that brand X presses with always run at top rated speeds, produce zero defect work, and do it with a single press operator that they can pay paltry wages to because the technology will overcome the need competence.

 

[Dario]

Hello fellow Lithographers,
...

Could you kindly mention the source of that docs?

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello darioluca,


Can you be more precise as to which "Doc" Seeing I've posted so many !!!


Regards, Alois

 

[Dario]

Hello darioluca,


Can you be more precise as to which "Doc" Seeing I've posted so many !!!


Regards, Alois

the one from which you pulled out those pics.

 

[turbotom1052]

careful now Alois. You may be getting setup for copyright infringement.

 

[curiosity]

Turbo,

Thanks for your honesty and reflection. And I can say with conviction that the company I work with is not analogous to the scenario you so vividly painted. For that I am thankful.

 

[turbotom1052]

Turbo,

Thanks for your honesty and reflection. And I can say with conviction that the company I work with is not analogous to the scenario you so vividly painted. For that I am thankful.

there are still a few good ones left

 

[curiosity]

Test results, if anyone's interested:

Curved and profiled 4 press tests.

Test 1. AM screening (round/240) at house densities (1.7, 1.4, 1.4, 1.05)
Test 2. AM screening at high densities (2.0, 1.75, 1.75, 1.30)
Test 3. FM screening (Staccato) at house densities
Test 4. FM screening at high densities

Initial purpose of testing was to find a useable method for producing noticeably more colorful work via extended gamut.
Sheetfed. 100# C2S text (Endurance).

I'll keep it brief.
Only Test 2 showed us what we were looking for. The other three tests were virtually indistinguishable.

And unfortunately, running all work like we did in Test 2, would probably be impractical. Increased ink usage. More than likely, increased labor costs to properly maintain a press that uses so much ink (think clean-up). Use it sparingly? Possible.

That said, we did like press response to FM screening, even though we already run a relatively fine screen, the FM screen seemed to be more forgiving. Its curves were also sharper and with less IFT, we could deduce less consumption of ink over time.

I won't get into the minutia of the whys and whats. Want that? See Gordo's blog. And btw, thanks for all of that great info. Very helpful.

Anyway, just wanted to follow up with this summary of our testing.

 

[cementary]

That said, we did like press response to FM screening, even though we already run a relatively fine screen, the FM screen seemed to be more forgiving. Its curves were also sharper and with less IFT, we could deduce less consumption of ink over time.

Staccato of what size? 10, 20, 25 micron?
Did you measure final gamut?