Printing grayscale images in CMYK?

[Michael Josefowicz]

and request all grayscale be converted to 4C. Got into a heated argument trying to educate this person on the work require to make 4C grayscale correct with curves and not just a simple color mode conversion. BTW, the reasoning for 4c-grayscale is because the product is whatelse–4C. According to her, there is NO reason to print in grayscales.

A question and a comment 1. Who was going to pay for the greyscale to 4c conversion?
The customer or the shop? The problem as I see it is if the staff has not learned how to do it just right and with a minimum of hassle, the cost is going to be too high. Then either the shop has to eat it or the customer has to be charged.

2. The problem with printing greyscale on a 4c job, unless it's on some of the digital equipment - the only one I have direct experience with is the Igen, where the richest black is K alone - the greyscale is going to have the wrong weight. It will either look muddy in the midtones and shadows or look "weak overall. So the issue is not that there is NO reason to print in grey scale. The real issue is that it should be printed in 4c if there are other 4c images on the job.

 

[Tech]

Don't take this personally, but one day, I would like to hear someone explain to me why Ansel Adam's b/w photos are "weaker" against color images. Granted the images we are using in our product isn't anyway near Ansel's quality.

 

[Michael Josefowicz]

The original photos are not weaker. But if you try to render those same images with black ink on an offset press, they are. If you render those same images on an inkjet, they probably won't. If you render them on a igen, they won't. The issue is the pigment and process you use.

 

[Tech]

Hi Michael,
1) Our prep-house will process final images, the cost is already included in production's estimate.

2) The self-fulfilling prophecy here is 4C=richer. Pickup an old 4C grayscale project and compare it against 1C grayscale product, do you honestly think because visually it's richer to you, others will have same visual experience as you? You are a designer, you are more sensitive to color than those with untrained eyes. What you see as rich black, a typical person might use the same word "rich" to describe it.

3) How is this a simple process? Are we not accounting how a "flat" bw/grayscale might actually bring some contrast to the page as an intended by designer? This product is flooded with plenty of colors as part of the design, colored background, drop shadows and other transparency effects. None of this is addressed by this person, except on past "experience" and products looks great! To whose eyes I must ask?

If you believe every product is different, by different designer, prep-house, printer and actual press as I do, the argument with this person based on past experience and prior products done in similar fashion/approach is meaningless to me. It's not an exact replication of prior products, no ifs or buts here.

As stated before, I'll give them what they request for-4C, but this doesn't mean I agree with their one size fits all approach. If's it's 4C, all must be 4C is not experience, that's call "I'm right and do as I say" or "I'm too lazy to find out exactly what is done to our images". No detail explanation on how this is accomplish except prep-house done it before isn't good enough. This is what bothers me the most when it comes to production personnel. They often do not care for the details as long as the project is done and off their desk.

The fallacy that our prior experience are always correct without continual reevaluation often leads to mistakes due to changes in technology.

 

[Michael Josefowicz]

Tech
I see your point. Especially the stuff about one size fits all. I wrongly assumed that the customer was making a considered decision about using 4c.

Reminds me of what I used to say to myself ( I was a printing broker) when I was in the game. Every serious question only has one answer. As in "should I make this image 4c or K?.. The only honest answer is "It depends".

The problem is the one you point to: it's hard to make the time and have the respect to listen, after you get to "it depends." It seems everyone wants a "yes" or "no" without putting in the time to understand the implications of the various options.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Tech did you try the InDesign approach? It is a fairly simple method, in that it is fast and gives a reasonable output (better than just K)
Create a swatch called rich Grey. Give it colour 20 10 10 100 (depending on the tone you want in the image) colour your grey scale photos in InDesign with this swatch. I know it is not perfect, but if your TVI curves are the right shape so that your grey balance is correct it will give richer smoother more detaile images.

Alternative 2 is to create a rich-grey ICC profile (in CMYK with curves that are in grey balance) and batch convert your images.

 

[jaynelson]

Quadtone settings

Quadtone settings

We've run the following tip several times over the years, and have received thanks from our readers for it. Perhaps it will work for some of you...

In Photoshop, choose Mode> Duotone. Then choose Quadtone and create the C,M,Y and K inks. Click the curve box next to each ink and type these values into the resulting fields:
0 50 100
C 5 51 65
M 3 38 53
Y 3 37 51
K 0 18 94

To save these settings into a settings file that you can share with others or use on future images, just click the Save… button and give the settings a name.

- Jay Nelson
Editor & Publisher
Design Tools Monthly
Design Tools Weekly Podcast

 

[muminn]

GCR Adjustment

GCR Adjustment

I think GCR adjustment is available in PS, under Color Management...

Regard,

No GCR adjustments available for the designer/prepress operator in the design software. Features that involve hacking the output files don't count

 

[muminn]

BW project in DUOtone

BW project in DUOtone

Hi there,

I'm printing a BW project of old photos of the city (1950-1960), scaned from negatives and we decided to print in Duotones (2xBlack).

We have printed a proof, and had a small problem with registration and Angles (45 degree for both).

I can post later some printed sample (Black vs. Duotone Blacks), and of course Duotone is more realistic.

Also, I have to change Duotone Angle from 45 to 15? Any suggestions?

pls advice,

Regards,

 

[Thierry]

I think GCR adjustment is available in PS, under Color Management...

Regard,

You are right but it's an old method from the pre-ICC days and if you want to use it, you have to rely on obsolete ink description like Eurostandard (at least if your work is going to be printed in Europe). ICC profile is the way to go if you want an up-to-date gray balance and a better conversion to CMYK but you cannot change the GCR setting of the profile you are using… That said, I am sometimes still using the old method when I need a CMYK separation with maximum black generation (our profile-making software doesn't allow us to have this much black in a profile…).

 

[tmiller_iluvprinting]

I have created profiles that I use for 4/c BW images, 4/c gray builds, and images that are dominated with gray balance. I build the profiles using the highest GCR setting with MaxK generation. Many advantages including:
Stability and consistency at press
Not affected by other design elements as much(adjustments to colored imagery/elements)
Ink savings
Reduces metamerism when viewed outside D50 lighting
Regards,
Todd

 

[Alith7]

It is a shame that there isn't the alternative to choose what GCR to use on a per image basis. Greyscales can look really good with an above average GCR. filling in the spaces on the middtones gives a softer, smoother image especially in portraits. The trick is to keep the bulk of the grey scale in K so that variations are minimal. We just did a 5 colour print run with CMYK+K, it was mainly to have a nice rich black backround without getting too much ink. first K at 80% second at 100% I love trapping for neg text

a bit OT, but I had to laugh at your last bit! my pressman walks up to me this morning with a super black flood folder with reversed out white text/logos and full color photos. i had already gone through the painful process or reverse trapping the white with a hairline black so that we didn't' get color halos. he tells me that he's having a lot of hicky problems and wants a 5th plate of an 80% black screen for just the solid....
gotta love it.

 

[ajr]

In the "Old days" our scanner op could produce some beautiful black and whites out of four colours always looked rich with no danger of the C,M or Y being to dominant a perfect balance. I think 4 colour greyscale pictures always look better when printed next to any colour work they just need the depth to balance the page.

AjR