Question about volume on Ricoh 9200

[PrintingGirl1013]

We are evaluating a few different options for production presses and have had various sales reps come in to talk to us about options. We had a big drop in sales (like most people) during the pandemic but we are steadily climbing back and will soon have an outside sales effort which we've never had in 50 years of being in business so we are feeling confident that our sales will increase. We've had a couple sales reps look at our current volumes and tell us that the Ricoh 9200/KM 12000 are "overkill" for our shop and I'm hoping to get feedback on real life volumes in shops that have these larger presses. Would anyone be willing to share your monthly volumes on your Ricoh 9200 / KM 12000 / Xerox Iridesse? Thanks so much in advance!

 

[jrsc]

Don't let anyone tell you something is overkill for your business. If you can justify it financially then go for it. It will help you grow your volumes much quicker because you will be able to take on more. You rarely kick yourself for buying something too good but you always kick yourself for buying the cheap option every time you miss an opportunity because of it.

 

[SoggyWinter]

We've had a couple sales reps look at our current volumes and tell us that the Ricoh 9200/KM 12000 are "overkill".

I was recently told that we would have to prove that we'd have enough volume to be *permitted* to purchase a 9200 or Iridesse. I'm suspicious that it is a tactic to spike the price for "making an exception for small volume".

 

[Ynot_UK]

I can understand why a vendor may expect a minimum volume (or minimum monthly charge) to provide an ongoing CPC contract, however any suggestion of proving worthiness to be "permitted" to buy a machine is nothing but a marketing ploy to portray exclusivity, with the intention of making the object in question more desirable. No different to Hermes handbags, membership of certain clubs, etc. Tell the rep to do one.

 

[kslight]

Well according to specs, the 9200 has a max monthly volume of 1 million impressions (8.5x11) per month, while the 7200 is spec at 240k per month. IMHO if you’ll be hitting the top level of the 7200 on a regular basis then the 9200 is the way to go. Of course the 9200 is a more expensive machine, but the click charges are a bit lower too.

 

[TJPrinter]

The most stressful period in 30 years of business was when I had to have a digital press removed because the sales rep exaggerated some features and chose not to disclose some pitfalls. So make sure you get what you need and not what the sales rep wants to sell you.

The 9200 has a higher duty cycle and is also faster and can handle heavier stock than the 7200. If the speed and heavier stock is important to you then the 7200 may not be the right press for you.

I had a sales rep take the speed of the press and he multiplied that by a 40 hour work week and figured that's how much work I could put on it in a week/month. It would be nice to be able to spread work out evenly over a 30 day period but that's not real life for any print shop. If your sales rep thinks that the 7200 will fit all your needs then get him to put it in the contract that if it doesn't they take it out at no cost to you. No verbal guarantees accepted!

 

[PrintingGirl1013]

We've had a couple sales reps look at our current volumes and tell us that the Ricoh 9200/KM 12000 are "overkill".

I was recently told that we would have to prove that we'd have enough volume to be *permitted* to purchase a 9200 or Iridesse. I'm suspicious that it is a tactic to spike the price for "making an exception for small volume".

I feel like its crap...

 

[PrintingGirl1013]

Don't let anyone tell you something is overkill for your business. If you can justify it financially then go for it. It will help you grow your volumes much quicker because you will be able to take on more. You rarely kick yourself for buying something too good but you always kick yourself for buying the cheap option every time you miss an opportunity because of it.

These are our exact thoughts.. we are in an interesting situation at the moment and are wanting to bet on ourselves. I lost my dad very unexpectedly in Jan of 2021 to Covid - he started this business in 1970 and I was supposed to take over, just not now, and not without his guidance. But here I am still hanging tough - sales are going up steadily - my husband has joined me and we are trying to make the best decisions. I really appreciate your input.

 

[PrintingGirl1013]

Well according to specs, the 9200 has a max monthly volume of 1 million impressions (8.5x11) per month, while the 7200 is spec at 240k per month. IMHO if you’ll be hitting the top level of the 7200 on a regular basis then the 9200 is the way to go. Of course the 9200 is a more expensive machine, but the click charges are a bit lower too.

Thank you. In our volume were to stay exactly where it is now, we wouldn't be maxing out the 7200 specs, but we are also outsourcing most all of our longer runs because our KMs are constantly going down.... tough decisions.

 

[kslight]

Thank you. In our volume were to stay exactly where it is now, we wouldn't be maxing out the 7200 specs, but we are also outsourcing most all of our longer runs because our KMs are constantly going down.... tough decisions.

Was in the same boat, we send big runs out and our KM was always down. My sales rep would have sold us anything we wanted, they didn’t hesitate when I had them quote a 9200, and the pricing they gave was competitive for that device also. For us it came down to the 9200 is a bit too large for our very small print room, and our large runs get done offset and even if we could keep that work here we do not have the staff or space for most of it. We have only had the 7210 for a few weeks but so far very happy with it, I don’t feel like it is slow (it is faster than the KM it replaced), and I feel like I can get a lot more out of it in a shift with less operator intervention (because it isn’t jamming), it is a much more productive machine than what it replaced. We only run one shift per day with many small jobs so we are not running the machine hard. If you have multiple shifts with constant big runs then a 9200 is probably the way to go.

 

[PrintingGirl1013]

Was in the same boat, we send big runs out and our KM was always down. My sales rep would have sold us anything we wanted, they didn’t hesitate when I had them quote a 9200, and the pricing they gave was competitive for that device also. For us it came down to the 9200 is a bit too large for our very small print room, and our large runs get done offset and even if we could keep that work here we do not have the staff or space for most of it. We have only had the 7210 for a few weeks but so far very happy with it, I don’t feel like it is slow (it is faster than the KM it replaced), and I feel like I can get a lot more out of it in a shift with less operator intervention (because it isn’t jamming), it is a much more productive machine than what it replaced. We only run one shift per day with many small jobs so we are not running the machine hard. If you have multiple shifts with constant big runs then a 9200 is probably the way to go.

This is really really helpful. We have a limitation as well with a very narrow, long building and its a retail space so we don't have a ton of room. TBH we would have trouble getting a 9200 through our front door. I'm glad to hear you're happy with the 7210. I feel like my judgment is being skewed because our machines are down so often that it seems like we can't produce much volume. We also run one shift and run many small jobs, change paper often, etc. We sub out most runs of 2,000 or more because our 1100 is just too unreliable. We also want the Plockmatic 350 I believe it is because we sub out a lot of oblong (22" long) booklets and are often maxing out the inline stitcher we have now with thicker booklets. Do you lease your machines? I've never been the one to make the financial decisions for equipment so I'm trying to understand the benefits/disadvantages of dollar out vs. FMV leases vs. getting a loan from a 3rd party.

 

[chriscozi]

This is really really helpful. We have a limitation as well with a very narrow, long building and its a retail space so we don't have a ton of room. TBH we would have trouble getting a 9200 through our front door. I'm glad to hear you're happy with the 7210. I feel like my judgment is being skewed because our machines are down so often that it seems like we can't produce much volume. We also run one shift and run many small jobs, change paper often, etc. We sub out most runs of 2,000 or more because our 1100 is just too unreliable. We also want the Plockmatic 350 I believe it is because we sub out a lot of oblong (22" long) booklets and are often maxing out the inline stitcher we have now with thicker booklets. Do you lease your machines? I've never been the one to make the financial decisions for equipment so I'm trying to understand the benefits/disadvantages of dollar out vs. FMV leases vs. getting a loan from a 3rd party.

Plockmatic will NOT run oblong 11 x 8.5

 

[gregbatch]

Speed is everything. Being able to meet tighter deadlines is a competitive edge. If you can fit it in your budget, go for it. You won't be banging your head in 2 years wishing you had a more capable machine in speed, volume, and material handling. You will need the Plockmatic 5000 Series to handle up to 24" sheets, which is much more money than the 350.

 

[kslight]

This is really really helpful. We have a limitation as well with a very narrow, long building and its a retail space so we don't have a ton of room. TBH we would have trouble getting a 9200 through our front door. I'm glad to hear you're happy with the 7210. I feel like my judgment is being skewed because our machines are down so often that it seems like we can't produce much volume. We also run one shift and run many small jobs, change paper often, etc. We sub out most runs of 2,000 or more because our 1100 is just too unreliable. We also want the Plockmatic 350 I believe it is because we sub out a lot of oblong (22" long) booklets and are often maxing out the inline stitcher we have now with thicker booklets. Do you lease your machines? I've never been the one to make the financial decisions for equipment so I'm trying to understand the benefits/disadvantages of dollar out vs. FMV leases vs. getting a loan from a 3rd party.

I am sure if the decision was based on the door size, you could have Ricoh come out and measure and see if it’s going to work or not.
Lots of small jobs I feel like the speed benefit of the 9200 is lost.

Like others have said, you should make sure the Plockmatic 350 will do what you want, when I’ve looked at them their size capabilities have seemed limited.

I have been on both camps…leasing and buying equipment. I think on a digital color press, an FMV lease is the best way for most businesses, assuming you don’t intend to buy the machine at the end of the term. I think they are generally getting tired at that point and not worth trying to keep, and the click charges are high. There are tax advantages to doing this as well. I lock our click rates for the full lease term. You could always shop around and see if your credit union will give you better terms but a lot of times the vendor has promotional financing.
A dollar out lease is what you want for offline finishing equipment that you plan to own when it’s paid.

 

[TJPrinter]

I’m in the lease the digital press and own the finishing equipment camp. 5 year lease with click charges fixed over lease period with no minimum or base charges. Every 5 years there have been enough updates to the digital presses that it makes it worth replacing. After the 5 year maintenance contract is up the new rates will be higher on the old equipment. I’ve always had very good service but going forward who knows if that will remain the case, so it’s important that I have a press that’s very reliable. The press is just an ongoing cost of doing business that’s figured into pricing.

I’ll get a basic finisher with booklet maker on the press but that’s just for the simple 8½x11 booklets with no bleeds. Everything else goes to offline booklet maker.

 

[PrintingGirl1013]

Plockmatic will NOT run oblong 11 x 8.5

I thought the same but this is the one he's suggesting:

Plockmatic PBM-5035S –
Fold, Stitch, Face Trim, Square Bind* up to 20 sheets (20lb bond)
Creates standard or landscape booklets
Max sheet size – 12.6” x 24.4”
Built in cover inserter
Can be hand fed collated sets while printer Is running other work
Wire Spools yield approx. 50k stitches (Two spools included)
*Minimum 6 sheets required for square bind books (20lb bond)

 

[Ynot_UK]

We have a limitation as well with a very narrow, long building and its a retail space so we don't have a ton of room... We also run one shift and run many small jobs, change paper often, etc.... I'm trying to understand the benefits/disadvantages of dollar out vs. FMV leases vs. getting a loan from a 3rd party.

If your narrow, long building gives enough space for a second paper deck, you'll never look back and regret this, particularly since you've mentioned the frequent paper changes you have to make. Long narrow spaces are generally good for a small digital shop.

I'm trying to understand the benefits/disadvantages of dollar out vs. FMV leases vs. getting a loan from a 3rd party.

This always depends on your individual circumstances. FWIW, we have always purchased plant & machinery (and vehicles) outright and sweat the assets. Typically from year three onward the P&L benefit becomes sweet and when you have a machine or vehicle that's eight or more years old and going strong, that's awesome. Eventually come the time to replace, a well serviced asset in great condition will yield a sell price way above it's book value, with the profit on disposal helping offset the pain of year one's depreciation on the replacement purchase.

 

[gregbatch]

This is really really helpful. We have a limitation as well with a very narrow, long building and its a retail space so we don't have a ton of room. TBH we would have trouble getting a 9200 through our front door. I'm glad to hear you're happy with the 7210. I feel like my judgment is being skewed because our machines are down so often that it seems like we can't produce much volume. We also run one shift and run many small jobs, change paper often, etc. We sub out most runs of 2,000 or more because our 1100 is just too unreliable. We also want the Plockmatic 350 I believe it is because we sub out a lot of oblong (22" long) booklets and are often maxing out the inline stitcher we have now with thicker booklets. Do you lease your machines? I've never been the one to make the financial decisions for equipment so I'm trying to understand the benefits/disadvantages of dollar out vs. FMV leases vs. getting a loan from a 3rd party.

I think commercial entrance doors must be 36 inches minimum, so you shouldn't have a problem getting one in.

FINANCING: For me, on a black and white machine a $1 buyout and run the wheels off it. BW technology is fairly stable. For color, that technology is everchanging, so FMV and roll over to a new machine. Inkjet keeps improving and scaling down. So, who knows where we will be in 5 years. For most other machinery, they will run for years if not decades, so 3rd party financing for a good rate.

 

[PrintingGirl1013]

I think commercial entrance doors must be 36 inches minimum, so you shouldn't have a problem getting one in.

FINAINCING: For me, on a black and white machine a $1 buyout and run the wheels off it. BW technology is fairly stable. For color, that technology is everchanging, so FMV and roll over to a new machine. Inkjet keeps improving and scaling down. So, who knows where we will be in 5 years. For most other machinery, they will run for years if not decades, so 3rd party financing for a good rate.

THANK YOU! This is basically what we've been thinking. Our b/w press has 13million on it (installed in 2012) and still going strong - thankfully paid cash for it so what a bargain. Our small color press has a click charge so high it makes no sense to even run it and our 6 year old 1100 is down every couple days so we've been seeing the value in leasing for those color boxes. Our bindery equipment has all lasted veryyyy long so it seems like financing with a loan would make best sense. I like the idea of inline stitching and trimming but maybe the best bet would be to have an offline booklet maker for booklets that are very thick, require square back, oblong, etc. THANK YOU!!

 

[gregbatch]

THANK YOU! This is basically what we've been thinking. Our b/w press has 13million on it (installed in 2012) and still going strong - thankfully paid cash for it so what a bargain. Our small color press has a click charge so high it makes no sense to even run it and our 6 year old 1100 is down every couple days so we've been seeing the value in leasing for those color boxes. Our bindery equipment has all lasted veryyyy long so it seems like financing with a loan would make best sense. I like the idea of inline stitching and trimming but maybe the best bet would be to have an offline booklet maker for booklets that are very thick, require square back, oblong, etc. THANK YOU!!

The Plockmatic products that are available inline are also available as offline machines under the Morgana label with high capacity feeders. Just load your precollated sheets from your machine and tell it how many sheets are in a book. There are 2 trays so one can be loaded while the other is running for nonstop production. This is a smart way to go because it keeps your presses running at full speed and handles finishing for all of your presses rather than being dedicated to only one. The 5000 series is available as an offline configuration. It is a nice compact option compared to some other offline booklet makers.