Ready for a step up from small laser / inkjet but no idea where to look!

[Mlenza]

Hello All,

I run a small to mid-size stationery boutique and for the last few years I've made do with a combination of a HP CP2025 desktop color laser and a Canon Pro 9000 Mark II printer. As my volume has increased it is increasingly frustrating to try to keep these printers which are really not designed for a heavy workload functioning properly. Also I am limited on page sizes and cardstock / paper / envelope options for each printer based on their strengths and limitations.

I'm ready for a step up into one do all unit but have no idea where to look. I'm likely going to be looking into leasing the machine and I can swing a few hundred dollars a month for the lease and consumables if it's the right unit.

My monthly printing is probably around 5-10k per month in color (I don't do much black and white printing)

The required specs that I need are:

1. Handling of cardstock up to 220# (my intuition tells me that I will need to find a unit with a straight paper path)

2. Handling of envelopes from A1 (3.5 x 5) and larger

3. Reliability (don't we all need this!)

I had met with a Xante rep at the National Stationery Show and while their Ilumina unit looked good I have been reading about how people have lots of problems with it and that makes me leery.

Basically I have no idea where to even start looking or comparing models which is why I am asking you pros!

Any direction or advice would be greatly appreciated!

-Matthew

 

[esmith214]

Take a look at the OKI Pro line. Specifically the newer 941 unit. It can be driven by an external RIP providing excellent color and job control. The cardstock is going to be a problem on any laser based unit. Even with one that can handle it, you will beat up the imaging heads and fuser from feeding the thick stock. The OKI will run it but you'll use more consumables in the process. On the good side, they are all easily user replaceable.

 

[JustinB]

Oki 941 is like $20,000.

Oki 931 is about $4,500.

Difference: Clear toner (not gonna use it on envelopes) and having a fiery rip for processing jobs.

For what you're doing, I don't think either are necessary.

The new Oki printers use an image transfer belt, so paper never touches the drums, only the belt. That keeps drums lasting a LOT longer.

I've got a 931 and so far I really like it. It's very consistent, easy to use, image quality is great, and I don't eat through drums like I did with my Oki C9800. The paper path is 'mostly' straight, though it does have a bit of a "v" shape to it so you have a spot for the image transfer belt to transfer the toner to the paper before fusing.

Envelopes still have some crease lines from getting squeezed through the fuser, but it's not enough for any of my customers to reject it.

I don't have an envelope feeder on mine, and can feed around 20 envelopes through the bypass tray. For short runs, it's perfectly fine. Long runs, I wish I had a feeder. A feeder from straight shooter is around $4500 and right now it's not a priority to me.

I only use it for envelopes, but I believe it will handle up to 300gsm paper.

If you can swing the $4500 for the printer, it's a great way to go. I don't regret my decision at all.

 

[Mlenza]

Thank you both for taking the time to reply.

Justin does that 930 handle A1 (4 Bar) envelopes?

-Matthew

 

[JustinB]

I don't have any envelopes that size, so I just cut down a few sheets of paper to 5.125" wide x 3.625" tall and they ran through flawlessly.

 

[Mlenza]

Man thank you so so so much for doing that.

That was awesome of you.

 

[JustinB]

Now do yourself a favor and get the whole "leasing" thing out of your brain. It's a trap, and they suck up your money.

If you can't pay cash, you don't need it. (Especially in your business!)

My next machine will cost about $90,000 and I'm saving up to pay cash for it. It's going to take a whole lot longer than getting a payment, but it'll be mine and I'll sleep a lot better at night.

 

[Craig]

Now do yourself a favor and get the whole "leasing" thing out of your brain. It's a trap, and they suck up your money.

If you can't pay cash, you don't need it. (Especially in your business!)

My next machine will cost about $90,000 and I'm saving up to pay cash for it. It's going to take a whole lot longer than getting a payment, but it'll be mine and I'll sleep a lot better at night.

Well you may want to talk to your accountant. There are some financial reasons where leasing makes sense. Also if you pay cash for a production machine you may find it obsolete before you get the full value out of it. I'm less than 2 years into a lease and am already trading up for a larger machine because of production increases. And when your into a $250,000 + machine, I doubt you will have cash.

 

[JustinB]

Go into debt in order to "save" on taxes.

I know that's "conventional wisdom" in the accounting world, but spending more money on interest than you save in taxes makes no sense in the human world. It results in less money in your pocket, and that's opposite of the end goal.

Pay cash up front, take your lumps paying Uncle Sam, and have more money in your pocket when the dust settles.

He's talking about spending less than $5,000 here, not a $250k machine.

I would have to think about it more, but financing a $250k machine may not be unreasonable, but it would depend on the situation. Couldn't you just add a second machine and not trade in your first? Redundancy? Hang onto the equity you've built up so far, etc. Lots to think about beyond what the salesmen (biased) and accountants (biased) tell us to do.

 

[damfino]

Justin,

As mentioned in a previous thread, I bought a 941 but sent it back for a variety of reasons. Will probably revisit at some later date.

The drums on the Oki 9800 and 941 both have a rated life of 42M. If running primarily #10's, however, I get a useful life of about 60M on my Oki 9800's. Question: can I assume the same extended life on the 941?

On the 9800 you can extend the drum life when you get the "Replace Drum" warning by simply lifting the drum up and re-seating. You can do this 3 times for an added 5-6M impressions. Can you do the same on the 941?

With a 9800 you can continually insert batches if 20 or so envelopes in the by-pass tray, maintaining a continuous run. I found with the 941 that as soon as you attempted to add another stack, the printer stopped. Do you experience this?

Thanks - Dave

 

[JustinB]

I waited to talk to my staff before answering your questions. I don't have all the answers either.

We haven't put through enough envelopes/paper to burn through the original supplies that came with the machine. (Only done about 16,000 so far) and I'm showing 40% toner life and 61% drum life left. I just can't honestly comment on supplies actual life vs. rated life.

What I know for sure is that you cannot continually stick a small number of envelopes in the bypass and keep it running. It absolutely does stop each time you have to put more in. When we try to fool it and slide them in the bottom of the stack, we get jams/crooked envelopes, and it's just not worth the hassle.

On my 9800 I struggled with random spots of magenta toner showing up on envelopes. I replaced the drum, the toner, cleaned everything I could find, and I could never make it go away. Nothing I did had any impact. That's basically what made me throw the towel in on my printer. To date I've had no issues on this machine, I'm sure because the image belt takes all the abuse, not the drum surface.

Sorry I don't have more info!

 

[damfino]

Thanks for your time and the follow-up.

Some quick math indicates that at this rate of production you will achieve a total drum yield which will approximate the rated 42M impression life. (I'm estimating that you have a flat sheets to envelope ratio in the 60/40 range. If you were running (smaller) envelopes only, your drum yield should reach 60M total, provided the 931 functions the same as the 9800.)

So at approximately $1,600. per set of drums, your drum cost is $38. per M. In as much as my 9800's print 16M or more in just one day, I personally could not realize a profit when considering this high drum cost, much less the other three consumables. I only pay $630. for a set of 9800 drums which translates to about $10. per M. I print for the Trade, so I don't have much leeway in consumable costs.

One note regarding the by-pass tray stalling the printer every time you attempt to slip in a few more envelopes: when the printer pauses as a result, it goes through an automatic drum cleaning cycle which degrades the drum's useful life even more. A Straightshooter feeder would eliminate this as well as make you far more productive.

The key to a well behaved Magenta 9800 drum is high humidity, in the 50-55 range. I'm in the Northeast USA and run two humidifiers in the winter. In the summer I keep the production area at an uncomfortable 80 degrees, as the AC acts as a dehumidifier. I also found that the voltage varies in my shop and installed a Tripp line conditioner (not to be confused with a surge protector). This device should be standard on all sensitive electronics.

Good luck, and let us know what the final drum life comes in at.

Dave