RICOH Pro C7210S vs. KM AccurioPress C7100

[PrintingGirl1013]

Hi all! I own a print shop and we are looking to increase our capacity by adding another production press. We currently have 3 KM presses (1250 b/w, C1100 color, C1070 color) but we are hoping to retire the 1070 because our click rates are insanely high and add something faster, that runs envelopes well, with more finishing options. With either press we will add a GBC magnapunch for spiral bound books and we want a good stitcher so we are almost sold on a Plockmatic (Ricoh suggesting the Plockmatic PBM 5035 S). Both presses have the capability of printing the longer banner sheets but ideally we want to be able to saddle stitch oblong booklets (22" wide by 8.5" / stitched to 11" x 8.5") because we do quite a few a year and we are currently outsourcing them. I like the 5th color station but its a "nice to have" rather than "must have". Our main issues now with our 1100 are inconsistent quality, major issues with registration, reliability issues, no square back binding option.

Anyone have experience with either press and Plockmatic willing to chime in? Any input appreciated!!!

 

[kslight]

We had a KM6085 w sd513 booklet maker / creaser / slitter, just replaced it with a Ricoh 7210x a couple weeks ago. FYI, we placed the order late September, so have an idea of when your machine will be coming in…

We considered the km 7100 but KM had really done a lot to let us down, was never happy with the 6085 and prior machines, so I was ready for a fresh start.


Our 7210 so far is great registration, I prefer the user interface / but all of the advanced settings you need are there, much better paper path / output, better color… 5th color stuff is neat but I’m not sure it’s a must have for most people…chicken and egg scenario I guess. That was not a determining factor for us.

I am not crazy about inline finishers…lots of money for something that you throw away with the printer, and often slows the printer down, and the printer techs never know how to fix in my experience. I’ve demoed one of the Plockmatic units you can get, but ultimately we decided on an offline booklet maker because of the reasons above, and also our offline unit is much more flexible size wise (we do a lot of small books that you’d never do inline anyway). I would definitely see if you can talk to shops in your area with the Plockmatic, and I would talk to the techs and service manager about it

 

[cqb1988]

I had Ricoh 7110x and Konica c6100, and recently upgraded. also looked at Ricoh c7200, and Konica c7100.

km c7100 is a downgrade from your c1100, it has the same structure as your 1070, I don't think it will duplex 400gsm well as it advertised. Ricoh is a much better choice right now, reliable machine, better registration, longer service interval, and most importantly has no supply issue. the only downside of the Ricoh 7 series is the screen seems very coarse compared to Konica, so the image is not as sharp, sometime image can be grainy on halftone. Based on my personal experience, Ricoh is more workhorse, and Konica prints slightly better quality when fully refurbished, but more problematic.

the plockmatic finisher works great but depreciates very fast, I still have 18k lease on my pbm350 after 3years , the used one is like 8k now. an offline Morgana 5035 with a vacuum feeder would be more versatile because if you want do full bleed book, the RCT unit is insanely pricey, with the offline you can trim the top and bottom, and load back to the tray. I think the vacuum feed tray is cheaper than inline RCT.

 

[PrintingGirl1013]

We had a KM6085 w sd513 booklet maker / creaser / slitter, just replaced it with a Ricoh 7210x a couple weeks ago. FYI, we placed the order late September, so have an idea of when your machine will be coming in…

We considered the km 7100 but KM had really done a lot to let us down, was never happy with the 6085 and prior machines, so I was ready for a fresh start.


Our 7210 so far is great registration, I prefer the user interface / but all of the advanced settings you need are there, much better paper path / output, better color… 5th color stuff is neat but I’m not sure it’s a must have for most people…chicken and egg scenario I guess. That was not a determining factor for us.

I am not crazy about inline finishers…lots of money for something that you throw away with the printer, and often slows the printer down, and the printer techs never know how to fix in my experience. I’ve demoed one of the Plockmatic units you can get, but ultimately we decided on an offline booklet maker because of the reasons above, and also our offline unit is much more flexible size wise (we do a lot of small books that you’d never do inline anyway). I would definitely see if you can talk to shops in your area with the Plockmatic, and I would talk to the techs and service manager about it

Super helpful - do you mind me asking what booklet maker you purchased? I was thinking about the plockmatic that can be used inline or offline. We do a good deal of smaller booklets as well so I thought having the option to feed them in / use it offline makes sense. We don’t have enough volume to justify an ultra pricey standalone booklet maker. Especially since we are also planning to purchase a Duplo 618 and UV coater.

 

[Shawnd]

that runs envelopes well

If you are talking about smaller than A7 envelopes this will be the downfall of the 7200, it does not like #10's as it has a tendency to refold the flap towards the back. I have managed to get it down to an acceptable level but he other issue is output, I have made some jigs for the shift tray but it still needs to be tended to by someone.

The other thing is speed, #10's going short edge first is slow, about half the output speed of my dedicated OKI envelope printer.

The benefits are being able to color match with everything running on the the same machine.

In my experience the 7200 prints A7,6x9,6x9.5,9x12 (catalog/booklet) great once you make a jig for the shift tray to stop the flaps from overlapping.

Ricoh has released an envelope jig for feeding #10 envelopes closed flap from the vacuum trays, I have been able to get it to work quite well but still have to deal with slow speed and flap refolding issues.

 

[kslight]

Super helpful - do you mind me asking what booklet maker you purchased? I was thinking about the plockmatic that can be used inline or offline. We do a good deal of smaller booklets as well so I thought having the option to feed them in / use it offline makes sense. We don’t have enough volume to justify an ultra pricey standalone booklet maker. Especially since we are also planning to purchase a Duplo 618 and UV coater.

We bought a duplo dbm 150 with face trimmer…it is a solid and small no frills machine, any huge booklet orders we sent out anyway so we just feed it by hand (there are feeders available but we didn’t buy them), it’s fairly easy to change it over to half size books and to even smaller books. For full bleed booklets we do the top and bottom trim first. We also use it sometimes as a half folder, for stuff that won’t go through our regular folder. I do not think this machine will do booklets as large as you want. I’m a big fan of Duplo equipment, I perceive it to be workhorse type stuff…we also have a duplo 646, almost 3 million sheets have gone through it and never any issues.

 

[jwheeler]

Hi all! I own a print shop and we are looking to increase our capacity by adding another production press. We currently have 3 KM presses (1250 b/w, C1100 color, C1070 color) but we are hoping to retire the 1070 because our click rates are insanely high and add something faster, that runs envelopes well, with more finishing options. With either press we will add a GBC magnapunch for spiral bound books and we want a good stitcher so we are almost sold on a Plockmatic (Ricoh suggesting the Plockmatic PBM 5035 S). Both presses have the capability of printing the longer banner sheets but ideally we want to be able to saddle stitch oblong booklets (22" wide by 8.5" / stitched to 11" x 8.5") because we do quite a few a year and we are currently outsourcing them. I like the 5th color station but its a "nice to have" rather than "must have". Our main issues now with our 1100 are inconsistent quality, major issues with registration, reliability issues, no square back binding option.

Anyone have experience with either press and Plockmatic willing to chime in? Any input appreciated!!!

1. We were initially concerned that the C7100 was a downgrade to the C6100 we have as @cqb1988 mentioned, because it is on the C1070/C3070 frame, however, now that we've had it for several months, we're not concerned. We just ran 2,500 sheets of 16pt C2S double sided and color/registration were spot on throughout the run. Feeding was flawless.
2. You can't print envelopes with the GBC punch unit installed on the KM C7100 (at least you couldn't with older models and we can't with our KM 6136 so be sure to verify and test with your KM dealer).
3. I'm not trying to sell you on the KM (in fact with wanting all the features you mentioned, the Ricoh will be a better choice), but I think it's worth mentioning to make others aware...The color inconsistency and registration issues were fixed with the KM C6100 series (which we have in our shop) and carried forward to the C7100 series along with several new features:
   1. KM now has an inline unit called the IQ-501 that automatically monitors color and registration on every single sheet. The IQ can also be used to verify VDP printing, along with checking for flaws in prints like scratches, hot spots, etc.
   2. The C7100 series also changed the registration method to the more consistent method used in the C1070 series which is 'swing rollers' that physically move each sheet to the same position. In fact, the C7100 series took it a step further and uses two sets of swing rollers instead of one set on the C1070/C3070 series. The C1100 series used quick calculations to measure the sheet's position and move the image to the paper which wasn't always the greatest.
   3. The C7100 series now has double corona charging wires that automatically clean themselves. Previous models only had single corona wires which had to be manually cleaned. This helps improve image quality/stability.
   4. Drum life was nearly doubled on the C7100 series compared to prior models
4. KM now has three bookletmakers that can do the squareback booklets
   1. They have their own unit called the SD-513 that will trim all 3 sides, crease the cover, and apply a square back. This unit will work in-line with any KM accessory. We have one on our C7090 with the squareback option.
   2. They offer the same Plockmatic units that every vendor does...the 350 and 500 (35 signatures or 50 signatures). Unfortunately, this unit does not work with any other inline accessories besides the high capacity stacker (at least it didn't with older models). That's something nice about the Ricoh is it can roll away when you don't need it and then you can use any other accessory.
   3. KM also offers the Watkiss (again, offered by all vendors) which is the most powerful booklet maker as it supports up to 56 signatures. This one also doesn't work with any other finishing accessory besides a high capacity stacker.

PS: I think it's worth noting that I used to sell production printers for Konica Minolta. I now work at a county in-plant that has all KM gear as noted in my signature.

 

[kslight]

Super helpful - do you mind me asking what booklet maker you purchased? I was thinking about the plockmatic that can be used inline or offline. We do a good deal of smaller booklets as well so I thought having the option to feed them in / use it offline makes sense. We don’t have enough volume to justify an ultra pricey standalone booklet maker. Especially since we are also planning to purchase a Duplo 618 and UV coater.

I didn’t see the last comment about ultra pricey standalone booklet maker. In my opinion the *inline* booklet makers are ultra pricey, again for something that you throw away with the printer. Especially if you fit it with the accessories that make “ready to box” prints, inline finishers are not inexpensive. A good offline booklet maker will probably last 3x as long as a digital press with minimal service.

 

[PrintingGirl1013]

I didn’t see the last comment about ultra pricey standalone booklet maker. In my opinion the *inline* booklet makers are ultra pricey, again for something that you throw away with the printer. Especially if you fit it with the accessories that make “ready to box” prints, inline finishers are not inexpensive. A good offline booklet maker will probably last 3x as long as a digital press with minimal service.

I have actually been thinking about this today. I was just reading about the Morgana 5035. What we found after getting the C1100 was that having a good stitcher in line saved a lot of time in bindery (especially because we specialize in quick turn times) and that allowed us to get jobs our quicker and with less labor - so naturally I have been thinking going with another / better inline booklet maker made the best sense. I suppose I need to give this more thought. I assume there are dealers that sell the Morgana equipment just like Duplo, etc.?

 

[kslight]

I have actually been thinking about this today. I was just reading about the Morgana 5035. What we found after getting the C1100 was that having a good stitcher in line saved a lot of time in bindery (especially because we specialize in quick turn times) and that allowed us to get jobs our quicker and with less labor - so naturally I have been thinking going with another / better inline booklet maker made the best sense. I suppose I need to give this more thought. I assume there are dealers that sell the Morgana equipment just like Duplo, etc.?

Yeah I mean you definitely have to weigh what makes sense for your workload. For us, we only have room for one printer so it doesn’t make sense to tie up that printer with inline finishing when we could handle that finishing separately while the printer was on other jobs, especially when that inline finisher wouldn’t be able to do many of the books we do anyway. We don’t do long booklet runs in house, but as an example, hand feeding even a slow operator can easily get 10+ books a minute….while I’ve never seen an inline KM or Xerox or Plockmatic achieve that rate.

Pretty much all of the major print manufacturers / dealers can sell you an offline Duplo, Morgana, etc and if you buy it with a printer it will probably be a better deal (low interest) compared to buying separately. It is worth your time to obtain multiple proposals as even on identical third party equipment, I saw a 25% difference in cost from KM to Ricoh to an independent finishing equipment dealer / servicing company. Sometimes a specialized dealer will have access to used or demo equipment also. I wouldn’t put a service contract on a duplo but as you get to more complex devices then it might be worth considering.

You’ll want to make sure your financing on any equipment you want to keep is on a dollar out lease, otherwise you’ll have a significant buyout cost at the end of the term (the former owner of the shop I work at signed a few bad deals like this including one on our duplo 646..we ultimately paid too much for the 646 over the 4 year term and then paid about 8 months more to own it…it’s a great machine and still cheaper than buying another one, but we got screwed).

 

[jdodoubleg]

We have a Ricoh c7210x with a Plockmatic 5050s on the end. We have been very happy with the Rioch, the print quality, reliability and general use of the machine have been great. The problem is with the "Problematic" we had the first unit replaced as it was deemed a lemon. We have just over 7000 booklets made on the plockmatic, at one point our service provider had to print a job for us because there were so many issues. Currently, we can make booklets, but it is rather frustrating to say the least as there are many jams. Our service provider has worked with Ricoh and Plockmatic to try and fix our issues, but we still have a few gremlins in there to work out. The plockmatic can be used online or offline. To work offline you would do well to look into the options for feeding as the hand feeder in the top is not made for volume of any kind. I would also get the inserter that resides in the bottom drawer if I had to do it over again, this will make booklets with different stock for the cover bind faster I think, this way you don't have to wait. I for the fuser to warm/cool. I also recommend the external waste conveyor, otherwise, you will be emptying the waste box often.

 

[kslight]

We have a Ricoh c7210x with a Plockmatic 5050s on the end. We have been very happy with the Rioch, the print quality, reliability and general use of the machine have been great. The problem is with the "Problematic" we had the first unit replaced as it was deemed a lemon. We have just over 7000 booklets made on the plockmatic, at one point our service provider had to print a job for us because there were so many issues. Currently, we can make booklets, but it is rather frustrating to say the least as there are many jams. Our service provider has worked with Ricoh and Plockmatic to try and fix our issues, but we still have a few gremlins in there to work out. The plockmatic can be used online or offline. To work offline you would do well to look into the options for feeding as the hand feeder in the top is not made for volume of any kind. I would also get the inserter that resides in the bottom drawer if I had to do it over again, this will make booklets with different stock for the cover bind faster I think, this way you don't have to wait. I for the fuser to warm/cool. I also recommend the external waste conveyor, otherwise, you will be emptying the waste box often.

Unfortunately when I was calling up other Ricoh equipped print shops the only complaints I heard were about their “problematic” booklet maker.

 

[chriscozi]

Unfortunately when I was calling up other Ricoh equipped print shops the only complaints I heard were about their “problematic” booklet maker.

We've been fighting quality on our Ricoh 7210 since six months after install.
The Plockmatic failed during install and stopped install for 3 months to replace.
Plock was fine until just lately it started throwing errors, quitting during run (really!), and generally being way more problematic.
Sigh.
And the print engine is still unstable.

 

[kslight]

We've been fighting quality on our Ricoh 7210 since six months after install.
The Plockmatic failed during install and stopped install for 3 months to replace.
Plock was fine until just lately it started throwing errors, quitting during run (really!), and generally being way more problematic.
Sigh.
And the print engine is still unstable.

We just got our 7210 installed at the end of March. So far it has been a champ compared to the KM machine it replaced, no service calls yet. What sort of image quality issues do you have?

 

[chriscozi]

We just got our 7210 installed at the end of March. So far it has been a champ compared to the KM machine it replaced, no service calls yet. What sort of image quality issues do you have?

Ok I'll take a stab at it.
1. The operator training was woefully inadequate. We ended up asking and getting additional training SPECIFICALLY so that we could maintain the machine with 'user replaceable' parts.

2. The press interface software is buggy and inconsistent causing much grief. For example when we change paper spec at the 'tray' interface, go to Fiery to print, the press errors. You MUST replace the paper to a different spec in Fiery, then re-add to get back to the paper specced. In other words the press doesn't update the spec at the Fiery even though you specifically made the update. You could try to fault the Fiery but this is just one example of the Press not communicating to the Fiery (our Xerox's have no such problem.)

3. Once we started doing 'self service' on user replaceable and CLEANABLE components we noticed the basic settings on the press use the 'least' amount of material. In other words the density of toner during runs, the cleaning of drums, the cleaning of the fuser, are all set to the minimum available. Great to keep the supply usage down but not so great when you face density or other quality issues that don't have explanations or examples.

4. Yes - we have gotten much better at diagnosing and treating quality issues. But I think that most of the issues could be resolved with dedicated maintenance. The first ~ six months were good. The next six months a nightmare of downtime while waiting for service to fix this, replace that, etc. (when they could figure out what the problem was and got the right parts)

5. And I won't talk about the service. Period. Doctor says bad for my blood pressure.

6. And then the kicker - the toner density on jobs CHANGED during runs. I know, you say 'hey, it's self adjusting.'
Well, except that the color can change dramatically. We have had MULTIPLE instances where we went from good to bad, and not just a small amount of change. If one of my operators had come to me and said 'hey, the color changed unacceptably while I was running' I would have been very skeptical. But I was the one who watched it happen while the operator was on a break. Sigh. We had a Ricoh engineer here who stated emphatically 'that can't happen.' So we proceeded to show him the multiple examples. They finally determined that it probably had something to do with the fifth color unit which we weren't using. And in the exploration they said 'hey - the machine is running SERVICE MODE self correction routine that is failing because the fifth color is off.' Ok, they said if we turn on the fifth unit it will self adjust. It didn't when we turned it on. But that gave us the info we needed to understand the issue well enough to mostly work around it.
We perform a density calibration before any proof or run. That helps stabilize it. And heaven forbid you turn the machine off or on and expect the same results.
Needless to say the operators are gun shy.
So right now the fifth unit is turned off in the service menu and it usually passes the calibration test. Not always.
And Ricoh said that it will work as intended with the fifth unit on IF we keep toner in the fifth unit. Hmmmm.
This leads back to the issue where we left the fifth color toner out of the machine because we have to pay ~$500 per cartridge and we noticed that just being in the machine it was getting used up when no job used the toner. We were weighing the cartridges to determine job costs. Ricoh verified it uses a 'small' amount (for us 1 toner cartridge in the first 2 months of non-use) in the COLOR CALIBRATION routine.
So the final decision was we told Ricoh - turn off the fifth unit completely and we have to live with the color inconsistencies OR provide us free toners so it self adjusts the way they say it is supposed to behave.
You can guess their response.
We got no free toner so we turn it off.
But we still face random changing color issues.
Sigh.

 

[kslight]

Ok I'll take a stab at it.
1. The operator training was woefully inadequate. We ended up asking and getting additional training SPECIFICALLY so that we could maintain the machine with 'user replaceable' parts.

2. The press interface software is buggy and inconsistent causing much grief. For example when we change paper spec at the 'tray' interface, go to Fiery to print, the press errors. You MUST replace the paper to a different spec in Fiery, then re-add to get back to the paper specced. In other words the press doesn't update the spec at the Fiery even though you specifically made the update. You could try to fault the Fiery but this is just one example of the Press not communicating to the Fiery (our Xerox's have no such problem.)

3. Once we started doing 'self service' on user replaceable and CLEANABLE components we noticed the basic settings on the press use the 'least' amount of material. In other words the density of toner during runs, the cleaning of drums, the cleaning of the fuser, are all set to the minimum available. Great to keep the supply usage down but not so great when you face density or other quality issues that don't have explanations or examples.

4. Yes - we have gotten much better at diagnosing and treating quality issues. But I think that most of the issues could be resolved with dedicated maintenance. The first ~ six months were good. The next six months a nightmare of downtime while waiting for service to fix this, replace that, etc. (when they could figure out what the problem was and got the right parts)

5. And I won't talk about the service. Period. Doctor says bad for my blood pressure.

6. And then the kicker - the toner density on jobs CHANGED during runs. I know, you say 'hey, it's self adjusting.'
Well, except that the color can change dramatically. We have had MULTIPLE instances where we went from good to bad, and not just a small amount of change. If one of my operators had come to me and said 'hey, the color changed unacceptably while I was running' I would have been very skeptical. But I was the one who watched it happen while the operator was on a break. Sigh. We had a Ricoh engineer here who stated emphatically 'that can't happen.' So we proceeded to show him the multiple examples. They finally determined that it probably had something to do with the fifth color unit which we weren't using. And in the exploration they said 'hey - the machine is running SERVICE MODE self correction routine that is failing because the fifth color is off.' Ok, they said if we turn on the fifth unit it will self adjust. It didn't when we turned it on. But that gave us the info we needed to understand the issue well enough to mostly work around it.
We perform a density calibration before any proof or run. That helps stabilize it. And heaven forbid you turn the machine off or on and expect the same results.
Needless to say the operators are gun shy.
So right now the fifth unit is turned off in the service menu and it usually passes the calibration test. Not always.
And Ricoh said that it will work as intended with the fifth unit on IF we keep toner in the fifth unit. Hmmmm.
This leads back to the issue where we left the fifth color toner out of the machine because we have to pay ~$500 per cartridge and we noticed that just being in the machine it was getting used up when no job used the toner. We were weighing the cartridges to determine job costs. Ricoh verified it uses a 'small' amount (for us 1 toner cartridge in the first 2 months of non-use) in the COLOR CALIBRATION routine.
So the final decision was we told Ricoh - turn off the fifth unit completely and we have to live with the color inconsistencies OR provide us free toners so it self adjusts the way they say it is supposed to behave.
You can guess their response.
We got no free toner so we turn it off.
But we still face random changing color issues.
Sigh.

I appreciate the insight, I haven’t experienced any of these issues yet, especially the printer user interface issues are surprising - I’ve made about 50 entries into the paper catalog so far and haven’t had any communication errors with the fiery. That’s interesting about the fifth color being consumed when not being used, but not surprising. I’ll definitely be talking to them about that.

They have actually been begging *me* almost daily to schedule more training, I have done a couple sessions but we only have one printer and our old printer was unusable for the final two weeks we had it so we are behind.

Are you with Ricoh direct or a dealership?

 

[chriscozi]

Are you with Ricoh direct or a dealership?

Direct. But service is now thru Ubeo.
That's great about the training. Maybe they are learning their lessons.
PS - we also took over managing the parts for the machine.
I have an inventory program that I run (just tacked it on to the rest of the prepress inventory as a new vendor) and the service tech adds or subtracts on his printed list - which we transfer to the database.
This has really helped with availability and rebuild components.
The techs were grateful about us managing their parts for them.

 

[demokena]

I have km c7090 and ricoh 7200sx machines. I actively use PP label and 400 Gr paper. I print duplex papers that the ricoh 7200sx machine cannot print, on the km c7090. It is a great machine.

 

[rcreveli]

I ran the Ricoh 7110 for 3 years and it was an absolute beast. We had the large paper drawers. Try 4 configured for long sheets. On the 7110 that's a permanent decision. The ability to run stingers was a huge value add for us. The 7110 did not duplex long sheets and we still got good registration on them
I love the Ricoh CRU program. it kept our downtime to a minimum.
I preferred the Ricoh UI to KM's. KM's UI hasn't really changed from the original 6500 and it needs a refresh especially in the advanced settings.
I've not used Ricoh's RIP , we had a Fiery>
We had the plockmatic and we used it offline 75% of the time. It was often faster the print everything and then hand feed them into the Plock. The biggest issue with the plock is if it gets cranky you have a mess of paper to clear out. We didn't have an offline booklet maker so, we made it work.