Ricoh pro c751ex
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PrintTriks
Well-known member
The 901s is still their flag ship production machine, the 651/751 is a notch down. From the looks of the machines I would say they took what they learned from the 901's built on it and made this series. As for the resolution it's the old 8 bit vs 1 bit trick, my advice is ignore all companies claims to dpi. If it looks good and I can sell it thats all I need to know, I have seen the 651, quality is acceptable and sellable to my market.
[email protected]
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Resolution
Resolution
You could say Ricoh (whom I do work for) is smoking VCSEL, or Verticalâ€cavity Surfaceâ€Emitting Laser, which is a new type of semiconductor laser with beam emission perpendicular from the top surface. Net-net, it allows a higher density of controlled laser emission, providing 40 laser channels for each toner color, and supports the high addressability and small spot size achieved in the C751. Let's face it, anything over 1200dpi in a digital printer is normally useless since toner particle size can only go so small, currently about 5 microns, and can't easily be seen by the human eye anyway. What Ricoh engineering has been able to achieve however is in other uses including magnification correction, image offset control and color line/edge refinement. What that means for example is that it can modify the magnification of the second side image in very small increments (0.025%) to keep it precisely aligned with the front side image. Lining up trim marks front-to-back becomes a non-issue. For line/edge refinement, long story short, the 651/751 is better at aligning pixel placement, reducing color fringing and fuzziness in lines and edges within the image thereby producing subtly crisper images and better thin line reproduction. Think detail and definition. These changes are made and stored in the paper catalog. Personally I think the output is crazy good but then I am biased. It is a new production machine and does share components of the 901 but with many improvements and enhancements and is meant for lower volumes than the 901 (300K vs. 400K PM interval). Each Ricoh/Ikon regional demo room has one now, they'll also be featured at GraphEx and they are shipping to customers.
Resolution
You could say Ricoh (whom I do work for) is smoking VCSEL, or Verticalâ€cavity Surfaceâ€Emitting Laser, which is a new type of semiconductor laser with beam emission perpendicular from the top surface. Net-net, it allows a higher density of controlled laser emission, providing 40 laser channels for each toner color, and supports the high addressability and small spot size achieved in the C751. Let's face it, anything over 1200dpi in a digital printer is normally useless since toner particle size can only go so small, currently about 5 microns, and can't easily be seen by the human eye anyway. What Ricoh engineering has been able to achieve however is in other uses including magnification correction, image offset control and color line/edge refinement. What that means for example is that it can modify the magnification of the second side image in very small increments (0.025%) to keep it precisely aligned with the front side image. Lining up trim marks front-to-back becomes a non-issue. For line/edge refinement, long story short, the 651/751 is better at aligning pixel placement, reducing color fringing and fuzziness in lines and edges within the image thereby producing subtly crisper images and better thin line reproduction. Think detail and definition. These changes are made and stored in the paper catalog. Personally I think the output is crazy good but then I am biased. It is a new production machine and does share components of the 901 but with many improvements and enhancements and is meant for lower volumes than the 901 (300K vs. 400K PM interval). Each Ricoh/Ikon regional demo room has one now, they'll also be featured at GraphEx and they are shipping to customers.
PrintTriks
Well-known member
Yup that's where I got to see one. As for the super quality, I really don't buy into all the dpi mumbo jumbo. The quality is very good to the eye and I can sell it, I really like the paper catalog as we all know how different printing on various stocks are. With this you can customize it for each stock by brand, type and weight. I only got to run a few things on it and we did not get to tweak it for front to back registration, however when I get back to the store I will be able to check sheet to sheet which is what usually gets me.
VCSEL has been used by Xerox since 2005 in Docucolor machines like DC240/250, 7000/8000, 700, 550/560, etc.
In these Xerox machines you can set your paper profiles with alignment and transfer settings (although the max number of profiles is about 20). I think Minolta machines have the same possibility.
I don't really think Ricoh shines for innovation...except for low prices....but 6 years later is quite easy!
In these Xerox machines you can set your paper profiles with alignment and transfer settings (although the max number of profiles is about 20). I think Minolta machines have the same possibility.
I don't really think Ricoh shines for innovation...except for low prices....but 6 years later is quite easy!
MarkPalmer
Member
We are getting a C751EX in a couple of weeks at Penn State in Erie to replace a heavily overworked C700 so I'll be able to post what the 751 is all about production wise as I'm the color operator. We run about 80k color clicks a month, about half of which is heavy stock so I'm looking forward to the duplexing capabilty the 751 will give on heavy paper over the 700, along with having the CRU's, which was a BIG issue with the 700 as the only things the operator can replace on it are the silly toner "bags" and the waste bottle.
During heavy stints of running the 700 would have about 3 service calls a week for poor print quality. I'm hoping the production capabilty of the 751 will reduce service calls dramatically, though I can't blame the 700 completely for its lackluster performance as it wasn't the right machine for this environment to begin with, it's really just a glorified office color copier and not a production machine. Running the 700 here for a year made me miss the little Xerox DC250 I ran at my old job, as it was far better than the C700. But, in what I have been reading, I have high hopes for the C751 here.
-Mark-
During heavy stints of running the 700 would have about 3 service calls a week for poor print quality. I'm hoping the production capabilty of the 751 will reduce service calls dramatically, though I can't blame the 700 completely for its lackluster performance as it wasn't the right machine for this environment to begin with, it's really just a glorified office color copier and not a production machine. Running the 700 here for a year made me miss the little Xerox DC250 I ran at my old job, as it was far better than the C700. But, in what I have been reading, I have high hopes for the C751 here.
-Mark-
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EASYdoor
Active member
Hehe, you see that's why I never got a X700 and those jobs who require "glossless" effect are ran on dc250, the other production jobs on dc5000 or dc8000. I'm also searching for a machine to replace my dc250, so i'm looking forward for a practical review of the machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkPalmer View Post
We are getting a C751EX in a couple of weeks at Penn State in Erie to replace a heavily overworked C700 so I'll be able to post what the 751 is all about production wise as I'm the color operator. We run about 80k color clicks a month, about half of which is heavy stock so I'm looking forward to the duplexing capabilty the 751 will give on heavy paper over the 700, along with having the CRU's, which was a BIG issue with the 700 as the only things the operator can replace on it are the silly toner "bags" and the waste bottle.
During heavy stints of running the 700 would have about 3 service calls a week for poor print quality. I'm hoping the production capabilty of the 751 will reduce service calls dramatically, though I can't blame the 700 completely for its lackluster performance as it wasn't the right machine for this environment to begin with, it's really just a glorified office color copier and not a production machine. Running the 700 here for a year made me miss the little Xerox DC250 I ran at my old job, as it was far better than the C700. But, in what I have been reading, I have high hopes for the C751 here.
-Mark-
Actually the X700 is 20-25% more productive than DC252/260, so it's clear that yout volume of 80k prints/month (for many years?) is too much higher for the machine. This is a volume for DC5000AP or KM8000.
I have a customer who swapped from X700 to X1000 after a year and 600k copies, mainly because he wanted to improve it's digital offer; but his X700 ran flawlessly.
The CRU system adopted by Xerox allows the customer to change toner bottles, toner waste, DRUM units, FUSER units, some other little parts; it sounds very strange you were not able to change everything else: maybe it depends on your tech service, but it's not Xerox standard.
X700 is a glorified office machine? yes and not; what's the border between office and production? is it volume or paper selection? kind of job?
I think that real production cutsheet machines are very few: iGen4, Xerox 1000, Xerox DC8080, Nexpress (various models), HP Indigo, (Canon VP7000), KM8000, (Ricoh 901?)
The main problem is that certain customers have production needs but office budget, and not always "sales monkey" is able to explain that you have to pay more if you want professional reliability...
Originally Posted by MarkPalmer View Post
We are getting a C751EX in a couple of weeks at Penn State in Erie to replace a heavily overworked C700 so I'll be able to post what the 751 is all about production wise as I'm the color operator. We run about 80k color clicks a month, about half of which is heavy stock so I'm looking forward to the duplexing capabilty the 751 will give on heavy paper over the 700, along with having the CRU's, which was a BIG issue with the 700 as the only things the operator can replace on it are the silly toner "bags" and the waste bottle.
During heavy stints of running the 700 would have about 3 service calls a week for poor print quality. I'm hoping the production capabilty of the 751 will reduce service calls dramatically, though I can't blame the 700 completely for its lackluster performance as it wasn't the right machine for this environment to begin with, it's really just a glorified office color copier and not a production machine. Running the 700 here for a year made me miss the little Xerox DC250 I ran at my old job, as it was far better than the C700. But, in what I have been reading, I have high hopes for the C751 here.
-Mark-
Actually the X700 is 20-25% more productive than DC252/260, so it's clear that yout volume of 80k prints/month (for many years?) is too much higher for the machine. This is a volume for DC5000AP or KM8000.
I have a customer who swapped from X700 to X1000 after a year and 600k copies, mainly because he wanted to improve it's digital offer; but his X700 ran flawlessly.
The CRU system adopted by Xerox allows the customer to change toner bottles, toner waste, DRUM units, FUSER units, some other little parts; it sounds very strange you were not able to change everything else: maybe it depends on your tech service, but it's not Xerox standard.
X700 is a glorified office machine? yes and not; what's the border between office and production? is it volume or paper selection? kind of job?
I think that real production cutsheet machines are very few: iGen4, Xerox 1000, Xerox DC8080, Nexpress (various models), HP Indigo, (Canon VP7000), KM8000, (Ricoh 901?)
The main problem is that certain customers have production needs but office budget, and not always "sales monkey" is able to explain that you have to pay more if you want professional reliability...
MarkPalmer
Member
It's not a Xerox 700 we are replacing, it's a Ricoh C700EX- two totally different beasts. I liked the DC250, but at Penn State it's all Ricoh machines. The C751 is a substantial upgrade from the C700EX in the Ricoh lineup.
-Mark-
-Mark-
oppss... pardon!
No doubt the C751 is an upgrade...but your volume is REAL Production (50% heavy weight paper...).
You should consider 2 machines, no doubt, especially if your contract is over 3 years.
acacia print
Well-known member
Being still new at copier use. We have a KM C500 and it needs upgrading. We are off to see a demo tomorrow on the Ricoh c751cx? thingy... We wont be buying/leasing one as our volumes are still too low, but it will be interesting to have a look over this beast. It's demo video says it has good sheet registration... how do you all think this "new system" will work out? Being an offset printer sheet registration is highly important so might be a bonus if this is nailed. Having said that our KM C500 is not too bad for registration, one of its relativly good points.
PrintTriks
Well-known member
If you think registration is good on a C500, then you will love the 751, the stuff I ran in the demo was much better than our old C500.
acacia print
Well-known member
Well that sounds good. I will be drooling in the show room then in about 22 hours... and counting.
MarkPalmer
Member
oppss... pardon!
No doubt the C751 is an upgrade...but your volume is REAL Production (50% heavy weight paper...).
You should consider 2 machines, no doubt, especially if your contract is over 3 years.
I wish I could have two machines, but I'm fairly safe to say that wouldn't fly on the budget we have here. We have a smaller Ricoh printer that can stand in as a backup in emergencies, and Ricoh/Ikon service is fairly quick here in Erie. Just having a machine like the C751 with CRU's we can stock I think will make a big difference in up-time. That is what I liked about the Xerox DC250 I ran before- at least I could replace drums, fuser, and the corotron if needed. With the Ricoh C700 we are using now you can't change anything but toners and the waste bottle, everything else is a service call which is plain stupid.
The mechanical sheet registration system on the C751 is virtually the same system as the Ricoh C900, with a few changes. Actually much of the technology of the C751 is taken from the C900, the 751 adding a liquid cooled developer system and VCSEL.
-Mark-
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EASYdoor
Active member
Yeeeem now i'm the first one to report on an actual C651EX demo.
For our local distributer this is something new, so they have a lack of knowledge how even to adjust the paper - for instance, so i was not testing duplex registration. But overall i was very impressed with the machine. Every paper that i could think of or i was already using was going thorough without any jam. I haven't done any stress testing yet, but that's for another day
I currently own and service following machines: dc250, dc5000ap, dc8000ap, 4110, etc, so as you can see the list is pretty big, and because I have very little time to maintain these machines, I'm searching for an upgrade to those machines and don't have to worry about servicing, but can still keep the service flexibility - if i want with CRU units.
The machine that I've demoed with their files and mostly mine, was not top notch, there was a slight change in color from one edge of the paper to other one, and when we printed "rich black" files there was a problem with banding that was noticeable. They didn't know how to fix the edge to edge color, but the banding is happening because of the new VCSEL laser beam, apparently there's a problem with the laser head in those specific cases where you have a LOT of color especially lot's of black toner. They said that they are aware of the problem and that they are already testing a potential solution for this specific problem. The tech also claimed that the 900 and 901 which used older laser method haven't had this problem. I've also had a chance to meet one of their Japanese engineers but it took a lot of time to explain something to him, so i just let it go
I was really impressed with paper handling, everything I threw at it was OK. I was impressed with the paper library, and that you can CHANGE and influence almost EVERYTHING, for instance for a text book we've reduced the gloss effect to a minimum, so that it looked like offset and without any loss of color and it was still fused correctly. The registration unit looks impressive - but as said before i didn't had the time to test it properely, the DECURLING unit is FANTASTIC - even most awful stocks came out straight, for instance only our dc8000 with heavy modifications was capable of that but not most of the time, here any paper that i threw in came out FLAT. Also machine is surprisingly quiet, and the LED light which signals you if everything is OK, or if something is not is very cool. You can easy adjust paper trays and most important you can fix the paper by a screw, so that the paper doesn't shift around - very useful. There's almost no cons, besides the quality of the print - but that's because our local folks don't know squad about it. What it really bothers me is that there's only FIERY rip and no CREO - this a huge disadvantage, because creo in my opinion is superior for advance users as my self. And you can't print a registration sheet straight from paper library, you have to do that as a part Fiery tray alignment procedure, or if you print a file manually - which is a waste of a time in my opinion.
Photos: The skin/flesh tones were absolutely fantastic, also the sky and the sea was mind blowing in my opinion.
TEXT AND GRADIENTS: Very excelent especially when you used 175 dot line + 120 dpi text raster - this is their emulation of an offset dot - really good.
But overall the machine is a technical miracle in my opinion, you can push the machine to the limit, and when they remove the VCSEL issue with banding this is a really state of the art work horse. I'll will be doing some more testing on this piece of kit in the near future.
I hope i've given you some insights otherwise ask and share you're experience with this machine.
For our local distributer this is something new, so they have a lack of knowledge how even to adjust the paper - for instance, so i was not testing duplex registration. But overall i was very impressed with the machine. Every paper that i could think of or i was already using was going thorough without any jam. I haven't done any stress testing yet, but that's for another day
I currently own and service following machines: dc250, dc5000ap, dc8000ap, 4110, etc, so as you can see the list is pretty big, and because I have very little time to maintain these machines, I'm searching for an upgrade to those machines and don't have to worry about servicing, but can still keep the service flexibility - if i want with CRU units.
The machine that I've demoed with their files and mostly mine, was not top notch, there was a slight change in color from one edge of the paper to other one, and when we printed "rich black" files there was a problem with banding that was noticeable. They didn't know how to fix the edge to edge color, but the banding is happening because of the new VCSEL laser beam, apparently there's a problem with the laser head in those specific cases where you have a LOT of color especially lot's of black toner. They said that they are aware of the problem and that they are already testing a potential solution for this specific problem. The tech also claimed that the 900 and 901 which used older laser method haven't had this problem. I've also had a chance to meet one of their Japanese engineers but it took a lot of time to explain something to him, so i just let it go
I was really impressed with paper handling, everything I threw at it was OK. I was impressed with the paper library, and that you can CHANGE and influence almost EVERYTHING, for instance for a text book we've reduced the gloss effect to a minimum, so that it looked like offset and without any loss of color and it was still fused correctly. The registration unit looks impressive - but as said before i didn't had the time to test it properely, the DECURLING unit is FANTASTIC - even most awful stocks came out straight, for instance only our dc8000 with heavy modifications was capable of that but not most of the time, here any paper that i threw in came out FLAT. Also machine is surprisingly quiet, and the LED light which signals you if everything is OK, or if something is not is very cool. You can easy adjust paper trays and most important you can fix the paper by a screw, so that the paper doesn't shift around - very useful. There's almost no cons, besides the quality of the print - but that's because our local folks don't know squad about it. What it really bothers me is that there's only FIERY rip and no CREO - this a huge disadvantage, because creo in my opinion is superior for advance users as my self. And you can't print a registration sheet straight from paper library, you have to do that as a part Fiery tray alignment procedure, or if you print a file manually - which is a waste of a time in my opinion.
Photos: The skin/flesh tones were absolutely fantastic, also the sky and the sea was mind blowing in my opinion.
TEXT AND GRADIENTS: Very excelent especially when you used 175 dot line + 120 dpi text raster - this is their emulation of an offset dot - really good.
But overall the machine is a technical miracle in my opinion, you can push the machine to the limit, and when they remove the VCSEL issue with banding this is a really state of the art work horse. I'll will be doing some more testing on this piece of kit in the near future.
I hope i've given you some insights otherwise ask and share you're experience with this machine.
printshopgirl
Member
Our local Ricoh office will have the c751ex for two days next week.
The rep says due to the earthquake in Japan the offices in this region are having to share the demo unit, hence the limited time frame I have to see the machine.
Kind of a bummer, as I feel like I don't have much time to prepare for the demo.
I would like to take a variety of files to test on the machine. Ideally, these files would have gradients, patches of solids and anything else digital machines tend to have difficulty with.
Rather than set out building these files from scratch with time I don't really have, I am wondering if anyone here has done this kind of thing before and if they'd be willing to send me said files.
I would be happy to post about my experience at the demo afterward, if that makes a difference.
The rep says due to the earthquake in Japan the offices in this region are having to share the demo unit, hence the limited time frame I have to see the machine.
Kind of a bummer, as I feel like I don't have much time to prepare for the demo.
I would like to take a variety of files to test on the machine. Ideally, these files would have gradients, patches of solids and anything else digital machines tend to have difficulty with.
Rather than set out building these files from scratch with time I don't really have, I am wondering if anyone here has done this kind of thing before and if they'd be willing to send me said files.
I would be happy to post about my experience at the demo afterward, if that makes a difference.
MarkPalmer
Member
Thanks for the demo report, it sounds pretty good. We print several 11x17 posters that have a lot of black background, and thus will put that issue to the test. Our graphic artist has been able to adjust file settings to compensate for black banding problems with the C700, along with its other shortcomings but we are hoping to keep that kind of thing to a minimum with the C751. Our local service people are very good knowledge wise with the Ricoh production machines as there are several of them in the Erie area. I will be working with one of Ricoh's production engineers who I have met before once the 751 is installed, and he really knows the machines well. I did ask about Creo on the 651 and 751, and it was left off as an option on purpose, as they are not marketing these models as high end production machines, only "light production." That probably doesn't work well though for larger volume users who have bigger production machines with Creo who want to use a 651 or 751 as a backup for smaller jobs and want to keep the RIP consistent between machines.
-Mark-
-Mark-
EASYdoor
Active member
Yeah, I know what you mean I also didn't have the time to prepare myself, but were on a tight schedule late afternoon - because in the morning i didn't have the time.
printshopgirl, i can send you my test files and explain to you where machine had difficulties. send me a pm with you're mail.
printshopgirl, i can send you my test files and explain to you where machine had difficulties. send me a pm with you're mail.
I saw a pre production C751EX last friday. Altho it was a pre production machine it still made very nice prints. Only in magenta there was some banding. It was the drum but because it was a pre-model they couldn't switch it. They needed to make a call to an engineer.
Now obviously the sales person and high volume print expert weren't pleased that it had banding and told that in the normal demo machine (which was switched between different locations) there wasn't any banding. I saw samples that came of the production model and those were excellent.
Running a Xerox DC260 now and the C751EX is a totally different class of machine. Everything looks smoother on the print examples plus the machine is very solid build (I know, its plastic from the outside, but almost all are, if not all). Paper path is almost straight so I think even 350 gsm paper will not be a problem in most cases. Duplexing 300 is possible too, again if you take the paper grain in mind.
I think Ricoh can get a nice percentage in digital printing.
Tomorrow we will get a quote on this new machine and also getting to know more about click charges. In our area they got about 500 engineers so I am also not afraid about having troubles and have to wait for a engineer for over more then 4 hours or even days (which happened here with the DC260...)
Anyway, nice machine! Video of the inside of the C751EX
Now obviously the sales person and high volume print expert weren't pleased that it had banding and told that in the normal demo machine (which was switched between different locations) there wasn't any banding. I saw samples that came of the production model and those were excellent.
Running a Xerox DC260 now and the C751EX is a totally different class of machine. Everything looks smoother on the print examples plus the machine is very solid build (I know, its plastic from the outside, but almost all are, if not all). Paper path is almost straight so I think even 350 gsm paper will not be a problem in most cases. Duplexing 300 is possible too, again if you take the paper grain in mind.
I think Ricoh can get a nice percentage in digital printing.
Tomorrow we will get a quote on this new machine and also getting to know more about click charges. In our area they got about 500 engineers so I am also not afraid about having troubles and have to wait for a engineer for over more then 4 hours or even days (which happened here with the DC260...)
Anyway, nice machine! Video of the inside of the C751EX
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