Riddle Me This--No trapping

[Tech]

Hi Everyone,
I'm completely dumbfounded why we are working with a 1-2 color printer that says they don't do in-RIP trapping and is requesting us to embedded a default Adobe trap setting into our files instead.

I'm always under the impression trapping is best done downstream and in-RIP. Has there been a shift of trapping responsibility to upstream-client side that I'm not aware off? Is this just a CYA (cover your ass) excuse for no touching client files to avoid responsibility?

 

[doubting_thomas]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Not that I'm aware of. How would a client know
how much trap we use?

 

[Tech]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Hi Thomas,
Exactly why trapping has always been done downstream. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem setting up traps and assigning them to our layouts/PDFs... I do have a problem with them covering their ass.

They run a PDF workflow and preflights our files with Pitstop and they can't do trapping? The back story starts with a product they printed for us last year, they never applied trapping to the files we submitted. There was an text overprint issue we fixed, but this "no trapping" business was not mentioned. A year later, we are ready for reprint, now they bring this up and wants brand new files with default adobe trap setting applied.

I'm totally dumbfounded and with our production manager looking at me like I don't understand what trapping is??!

I'll be honest, if I have the power to kill off any work with this printer, it would be now. The lack of communication is so great, we are separated by a whole year!

 

[PerthWA]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Happy,,,

it amazes me your printer wants you to trap the pages,
pre-press should always do the trap based on the file the press the stock etc.

Anyway,. my 2cents

Burton

 

[Andy]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Hi HappyFriday.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "is requesting us to embedded a default Adobe trap setting into our files"? - as this seems to imply a contradiction vs the comment "they don't do in-RIP trapping ".

In my understanding, an "Adobe trap setting" is just a 'flag' in the PDF file that says apply in-RIP trapping (in the simplest case), in which case for your printer to honor it they must be doing in-RIP trapping.

Regards,

Andy.

Edited by: Andy Cave on Aug 1, 2008 10:14 AM

 

[Tech]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Hi Andy,
Their pre press manager said they have no software to do in-RIP trapping. Which makes little sense to me even now after sleeping on it. There is a way to create a composite PDF with Adobe's default trap out of InDesign. Correct me if I'm wrong, I pretty certain in-RIP trapping on output is more efficient.

 

[Andy]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Hi HappyFriday.

You say "There is a way to create a composite PDF with Adobe's default trap". Is this an actual trap layer from InDesign, or just a trap setting? If the latter, then the printer will need in-RIP trapping.

I think that given a good implementation, in-RIP trapping should be more efficient and accurate (especially for jobs with transparency, etc...), although for any fully-automated solution (such as Hqns TrapPro) you get what you get (apart from tweaking some of the trapping controls and trying again). With other post-RIP trapping, such as Lucid Dreams iTrap, it's probably not as efficient as TrapPro, but you do then get to make manual changes to the automatic trapping. The same things should apply to other (similar) RIPs and trapping solutions.

Personally, I'd test any trapping solution and if it works, use it, assuming it fits the budget (upfront cost). I think the most important thing for trapping is: a) does it work, and b) does it fit the budget. By does it work, I mean does what I want in an acceptable time (running costs) - so is both correct and cost-efficient. For me, if it's in-RIP or pre-RIP or post-RIP would not matter - the other two things would be way more important.

Regards,

Andy.

Andy Cave,
Chief Executive Officer,
Hamillroad Software Limited.
www.firstproof.com
www.hamillroad.com

 

[John W]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Here's my 3 cents.

Many printers do not use in-rip traping even if their rip has such a module, usually it isn't licensed!

Because we are doing folding carton work almost exclusively, using metallic inks, duotones and tritones, multiple varnishes (or fake ones - ask me about this some day), foiling and embossing and 95% of the client files we receive are simply wrong and I mean totally wrong in many cases, we work in native files, repair builds, recolor as needbe, do application level trapping and use a rudimentry ps eps workflow. You may think we're nuts, but every single in-rip trapper that we have tried, chokes on these sorts of files. They trap instantly but while some objects trap properly, some blends trap properly; others in a different area of the same file will trap incorrectly. Change the parameters of the in-rip trapper and the areas that were wrong are now correct while the areas that were correct are now wrong. Sure, it takes us a bit longer and we require a large skillset, but our results are foolproof (based on operator knowledge). Biggest flaws of in-rip trapping is the inability of most to efficiently edit the traps afterwards. Plus vector trap is simply not good enough IMO; I much preferred the old hires raster trappers such as Contex RipnStrip, LW/CT where you could simply edit the LW after trapping ordering the traps based upon objects in the LW file then make the composite CT from the LWTrp file. On a SGI R5000 or 10000 processor (circa 1988) small tab size pages would be trapped in <2 minutes and the Comp CT made in about 4 minutes. We used to handle 27 vers of each page (9 Cdn zones w 3 languages vers) and complete a full 24 pg flyer in less than one day shift week with two operators. Spot colors were just more cmyk (up to twelve colors). Remember this was 1988!

I am also a strong believer in flattening early, not late; never late because once flattened, transparency cannot hurt you. I have seen too many type shadow effects ruined, mostly because of poor designer method (layering priority problems). Since we are the printer's prepress, we assume the file is correct for intent when it arrives. If it isn't, we charge to do the thing over again so late editing (sold to us as a flattening early prob) is no issue.

I suppose one could argue that direct to press (such as iGen or Indigo) especially where the stock travels flat through the device and ink jet sprays the image, then trapping is perhaps not necessary at all because fit is perfect. Hey, there's a selling feature, no ugly trap lines!

Key to the whole trapping thing is to openly communicate and trust; ah, there in lies the problem of the whole freggin world; no simply decency, no trust, closed lips because of ignorance or pride or, . . . well you get my rant.

John W

Edited by: John Willis on Aug 1, 2008 8:32 AM

 

[rich apollo]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Andy,
I think what Happy is saying is that the printer has no automatic trapping solution, and is asking for application level trapping.

No, Hap, there is not a push to have trapping happen upstream. Sounds like you have a tightfisted print vendor who has been badly bitten by clients.

In the past you would review the traps both in the applications and on the film. So, now you have a PDF workflow going to CTP and you can't do either. This printer would be greatly served by purchasing a PDF trapping solution either as a plug-in for Acrobat or for their RIP.

 

[Andy]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Hi Rich,

> I think what Happy is saying is that the printer has no automatic trapping solution, and is asking for application level trapping.

I understand that, but the language he initially used was imprecise and so open to interpretation. I was therefore asking him to either clarify, or go back to his printer to clarify exactly what he meant.

> In the past you would review the traps both in the applications and on the film. So, now you have a PDF workflow going to CTP and you can't do either.

That's exactly where our product FirstPROOF comes in and one of the things we recommend it can be used for (virtual 'film' proofing of your CtP digital plate data). In fact if you have one, you can set up your Hqn RIP to not only automatically generate the traps with TrapPro, but also to produce an extra TrapZone separation which then gets shown in FirstPROOF (in Held mode - for checking before output). From that extra TrapZone separation, you can clearly see where the traps are, then once you've approved it all, delete just that extra TrapZone separation and Output the job (which means add the PGBs to the Hqn RIPs Output Controller and make your plates).

Regards,

Andy.

Andy Cave,
Chief Executive Officer,
Hamillroad Software Limited.

 

[Tech]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Sigh, to make a looooong story short, we are removing the 2nd color to avoid trapping. Days like this makes me realized how important communication is between downstream and upstream folks. If your left leg dunno what your right leg is doing, you might as well be amputate.

 

[shorty83]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Why don't you just do the trapping in the application and then send it over? Sound like if it is a two color job it could be easy enough?

 

[Tech]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Hi Shorty,
From what I understand this printer NEVER traps their client files. It was a nightmare for them to print it last year, yet they don't find this information important enough to tell us until now.

I ran a composite PDF from InDesign using default trap setting like they suggested, the trap looks so obvious like we can't align 2 picture boxes. Other than changing printer (we are running late on schedule), reducing design to 1-color is our best option to resolve this.

 

[WharfRat]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

Yeah -
why not just trap coming out of InDesign and be done with it
if that is your only option and the prepress can not do it.
InDy has OK trap settings control (even though the final traps are a little rough)
Or
send the PDF to someone with slick software and have them trap it for you.
It would take seconds.

MSD

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

> {quote:title=Tech wrote:}{quote}
> Hi Shorty,
> From what I understand this printer NEVER traps their client files. It was a nightmare for them to print it last year, yet they don't find this information important enough to tell us until now.
>
> I ran a composite PDF from InDesign using default trap setting like they suggested, the trap looks so obvious like we can't align 2 picture boxes. Other than changing printer (we are running late on schedule), reducing design to 1-color is our best option to resolve this.

I'm just surprised if it was a nightmare to print why doesn't the printer get a RIP with in rip trapping. That was the first thing I did when I got this job, I said "get me in rip trapping or I can't do my job."
It is the printer who needs the trapping tool, or he nees perfect register (and no substrate distortion), since that is infact impossible, every printer should have a trapping soloution.
If they want to motivate trapping expense: print with no trapping and reprint all jobbs till the customer is satisfied… you find that fairly early on your trapping investment is not an expense it's an investment.

Not having trapping is like a plumber with no plumbing tape.

I seen some prer rip trapping, and it looks terrtible, especialy if there is image to graphics trapping.

Edited by: Lukas Engqvist on Aug 5, 2008 4:01 AM poor spelling ;P

 

[Tech]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

I think this pretty much explains why this printer only handles up to two colors and since most of the work they accept goes through their CSR, I'm guessing this one falls on the CSR and their pre press for NOT catching the need to trap our files... or they wouldn't have accepted the job?

Their pressmen were skilled enough to adjust press last year to create "kissing butts" and outcome were fairly good for average eyes... of course, in that process they also wasted a load of paper.

In any case, lesson learned here... communicate with your clients, early and often. Honesty about their limited capability would have saved us all from headaches, frustration and time wasted.

 

[T]

Re: Riddle Me This--No trapping

How long have you been in the business? Sounds like years. (sorry) All we use is in-rip (nexus SW) and 98% PDF with no flattening till the very end when plating. We do all the same kind of work and some!

T