Ring AM screening?

[gordo]

In the latest Idealliance Guide to Print Production, reference is made to "Ring AM screening" - but what type of screening it is is not defined. I have a theory about what it is but I'd like to hear from someone who actually knows.
Also is the claim that: "FM and Ring AM screening can help solve screen angle conflicts which result from using conventional AM screening." If my theory about what the Ring AM screening is then AFAIK it uses the same screen angles as conventional AM screens so how would it "help solve screen angle conflicts"?

 

[Slammer]

If memory serves ring AM screening was one of Agfa´s brainfarts way back in the late nineties. It was offered as a way to save on ink and targeted at newspaper and magazine publishers. It didn´t offer any advantages over conventional screening and after a while nothing was heard of it again.

 

[gordo]

If memory serves ring AM screening was one of Agfa´s brainfarts way back in the late nineties. It was offered as a way to save on ink and targeted at newspaper and magazine publishers. It didn´t offer any advantages over conventional screening and after a while nothing was heard of it again.

I don't think your memory serves this time. I think Idealliance is referring to Esko's Concentric Screening which divides the conventional AM round dot into thin concentric rings. But, it does retain the traditional AM screen angles.
I wish that the authors of these kinds of documents would bring in an outside editor to review their documents before publishing them. At least they could include a glossary.

 

[Slammer]

Concentric screening, that could be. But there was something with a ring dot by Agfa yonks ago in the stone age, perhaps I´m starting to get things mixed up in my dotage.

 

[xmoles]

Agfa markets the latest screening technology called spiral

 

[gordo]

Agfa markets the latest screening technology called spiral

Thanks for that. The info from Agfa is very minimal but it seems Spir@l is a work around the Concentric screening patents - i.e. build a halftone dot using single pixel rings (concentric or spiral). So the benefits and limitations will probably be the same. I've requested more info and will report back.

 

[schenkadere]

This was an old Artwork Systems screening.
The concept was to lay down a thinner ink layer keeping colors cleaner and having more control and possibly expanding the gamut.
None of these things ever seem to really take off.

 

[gordo]

This was an old Artwork Systems screening.
The concept was to lay down a thinner ink layer keeping colors cleaner and having more control and possibly expanding the gamut.
None of these things ever seem to really take off.

Punching holes in halftone dots - whatever method is used - is a sound idea. However it does place great demands on the imaging system (CtP and plates). It may be one reason that Agfa Spiral screening is only available on their plates.
Those imaging demands can increase vendor servicing support for customers that use these types of screens.
Agfa is a very competent marketer so it will be interesting to see what impact that has on adoption and general industry discussion.
In my experience, printers tend to be very conservative when it comes to adopting new technologies ("why fix it if it ain't broke"). And when they do they tend to be very secretive about it preferring to keep their "secret sauce" to themselves. So it's very difficult to get a realistic measure of actual adoption and usage. I scripted and directed a promotional video based on these printer attitudes which can be seen here. Note that the video is an advertising piece so don't watch if that's an issue for you.

 

[schenkadere]

I can find any evidence that Esko currently supports concentric screening. Must be a legacy product by now.

 

[michaelejahn]

If i might add.

Auraia Digitally Modulated Screening DMS - Hamillroad Software Limited

Auraia DMS dramatically enhances quality, stability, and gamut, while delivering ink savings over conventional screening for offset / litho printing.

www.hamillroad.com

Probably the very best screening I have encountered. I worked for Scitex ( Via SGAUA ) and AGFA and Compose Systems.

Andy Cave is one of the brightest people I have met.

About - Hamillroad Software Limited

About Hamillroad Software We develop products which transform the print world Hamillroad Software is a dynamic company working to provide the printing industry with innovative solutions to everyday problems. Hamillroad was born out of the pioneering work of Robert Miller who developed many produ ...

www.hamillroad.com

 

[gordo]

I can find any evidence that Esko currently supports concentric screening. Must be a legacy product by now.

You appear to be right. I'm not surprised as the customer service support for that product would have been very high with very little ROI for Esko.

 

[PeteKincaid]

Artwork Systems / Esko problem with concentric was that only 1 person (Samworth) understood and knew how to work with printers for them to be successful with it.

 

[gordo]

Artwork Systems / Esko problem with concentric was that only 1 person (Samworth) understood and knew how to work with printers for them to be successful with it not to mention the potential liability issues.

That doesn’t seem right. Couldn’t Sam train the Esko technicians?
I know he did the installs (lots of travel points I assume) and that every install was different. That’s a recipe for expensive customer support and service nightmares.

 

[DavidH]

Concentric is still a supported product from Esko. Actually, we are seeing a bit of a rebirth of Concentric Screening with expanded gamut - several projects in the folding carton field have taken place recently. The widespread use of the G7 process also helps Concentric: This was not in common use when we introduced Concentric in 2004. Esko has engineers in all regions of the world that can work with customers in implementation of Concentric or other screening products.

 

[gordo]

Concentric is still a supported product from Esko. Actually, we are seeing a bit of a rebirth of Concentric Screening with expanded gamut - several projects in the folding carton field have taken place recently. The widespread use of the G7 process also helps Concentric: This was not in common use when we introduced Concentric in 2004. Esko has engineers in all regions of the world that can work with customers in implementation of Concentric or other screening products.

Why would Concentric be reborn with expanded gamut since it uses the same screen angles as conventional AM?
Why would G7 help Concentric?

 

[DavidH]

Why would Concentric be reborn with expanded gamut since it uses the same screen angles as conventional AM?
Why would G7 help Concentric?

When Concentric was launched more than 10 years ago, G7 and other methods of process control were either not available or simply not as well known as they are today. Having good process control in place helps. I asked Mark Samworth (who doesn't have an account here) about recent customer experiences with Concentric and extended gamut - he said "Why use Concentric for ECG? You get a larger gamut. Also, for offset, the Violet plate is always run with stochastic (Organic). In some cases all three extra colors (O, G, and V) are run with Organic. Concentric and Organic are a perfect combination (20µ rings with 20m worms) so you have the same ink / water balance on press. And here is the key – we know that stochastic screens can look grainy. But if you study the grain effects, you will see that single color Organic screens are as smooth as AM. It’s not until you put multiple colors on top of each other that the stochastic grain become objectionable. With Equinox, the O, G, and V never print on top of each other. A stochastic printed on top of a Concentric looks like a Concentric"

 

[gordo]

I'll provide a link to a more in depth analysis at the end of this post.

I asked Mark Samworth (who doesn't have an account here) about recent customer experiences with Concentric and extended gamut - he said "Why use Concentric for ECG? You get a larger gamut.

That is not true as far as I have been able to determine. In fact the gamut of concentric may actually be smaller when it's compared to a conventional AM screen at the same lpi. In all the comparison samples of concentric screening provided by Esko that are used to demonstrate the extra gamut the concentric is run at a higher lpi. Comparisons of concentric are not made with screens of the same lpi. The higher lpi is what can account for any extra gamut.

Also, for offset, the Violet plate is always run with stochastic (Organic). In some cases all three extra colors (O, G, and V) are run with Organic. Concentric and Organic are a perfect combination (20µ rings with 20m worms) so you have the same ink / water balance on press. And here is the key – we know that stochastic screens can look grainy. But if you study the grain effects, you will see that single color Organic screens are as smooth as AM.

Then why not just use Organic for all the colors?
It's not correct to say that "stochastic screens can look grainy". There are two broad classes of stochastic screens. First order and second order. First order stochastic uses individual dots through the tone scale. However very few printers use that class of screening because of its grainy appearance. Second order stochastic groups the dots to form clusters. That effectively eliminates the grainy appearance and is the class of stochastic screening used by the vast majority of printers. Esko's Organic is a second order stochastic screen which is one reason why, as you noted, "Organic screens are as smooth as AM".

It’s not until you put multiple colors on top of each other that the stochastic grain become objectionable. With Equinox, the O, G, and V never print on top of each other. A stochastic printed on top of a Concentric looks like a Concentric"

I'm not sure I understand what you wrote. Are you saying that, for example, printing stochastic O over stochastic V or stochastic G over stochastic O makes the stochastic grain become objectionable? But you would never print those colors over one another - even if you were using conventional AM screening.

Here is the link to more info on my analysis of Concentric. The info has not been disputed by Esko, and I know they have read it:

Esko Concentric screening - some observations

Esko Concentric screening is at heart an AM screen which uses a unique halftone dot where solid AM dots are divided into thin concentric rin...

the-print-guide.blogspot.com

 

[[email protected]]

I think I know why printers come up with all of these excuses.
Its because every salesman has said their product will improve something and yet nine times out of ten there is no improvement; consequently printers are fed up with people making these claims and not delivering on them.
If the product (who ever makes it) is sooooooooo good then install it for free and when we see the improvements we will hand over the pound (dollar, yen, etc.) notes to pay for it.

My most recent experience at a site was the installation of a second press & RIP and the absolute guarantee that one could transfer a ripped document from one RIP to the other RIP and thus be able to print on both presses without having to RIP the document a second time and have a perfect match between the two presses printing the same document.
Sadly there is a difference in the printed pieces.
6 months later the manufacturers engineers have still not figured out the problem.

 

[MrRWright]

It's always an interesting conversation when the topic of screening and ink savings. as MichaelJahn mentioned above, the guys at Hamillroad , like Andy Cave are really smart. Getting the commercial printers to adopt it without print buyers demanding it will be a hard sell. I wish the team all the best and would encourage some long term testimonials with real-world performance and cost figures.
Richard

 

[gordo]

[SNIP}Getting the commercial printers to adopt it without print buyers demanding it will be a hard sell. I wish the team all the best and would encourage some long term testimonials with real-world performance and cost figures.
Richard

Print buyers did not demand that their commercial print suppliers switch from film imaged plates to CtP - yet the majority of printers switched to CtP. Why? For the economic benefits that the switch to CtP provided to the printers. The same thing is true for FM (microdot) screening. There is real-world performance and cost figure data published that shows the value of FM screening vs AM. Or, you can test it yourself.

(disclosure, I was very closely involved with the screening team at Creo/Kodak (Staccato/Colorflow/CtP) and later with Hamillroad (Auraia/Bellissima))