Sales Strategies

[claude72]

@ claude72 - do not mean to pick on you here, but you made a few statements one might disagree with...

so - I would like to debate your point of view.

No problem for a debate!

1. I have not met many Printers ( nor visited many printers web sites ) where they explicitly request ( your words)

"...pages in JPEG or TIFF in CMYK without profile..." - please do share a link to a printers site that does that. Most request PDF pages. If you send a PDF/X file, at least you get an output profile.

I didn't mean meeting printers, I was only talking about on-line printers...

Most on-line printers in France ask for page's files in JPEG/TIFF/EPS/PDF... not all in that order, some ask for the PDF in first, but some ask for JPEG first!
Concerning the EPS files, none of them precisely ask for EPS-Illustrator... meaning that EPS-Photoshop are also accepted.
And about PDF, beware of printers who ask for single-page PDFs, as one imaging method often used by low quality print-shops is simply to rasterize the PDFs one-by-one in Photoshop, save in JPEG and print the JPEGs... btw, it's a very common practice in some poor south-countries.


I can give you some links, but you'll get specifications in french:

JPEG, PDF, TIFF : les types de fichiers pour imprimer en ligne
"JPEG (Join Photographic Expert Group) Haute résolution de préférence : le plus simple et le plus fiable !"
Translation : "JPEG (Join Photographic Expert Group) High resolution preferred : the most easy and the most reliable"
(I like the "High resolution preferred"... )

PrintPasCher - Conseils techniques
"Nous acceptons les fichiers aux formats suivants : .indd, .eps, .psd, .tiff, .jpg, .pdf, .ai, .doc, .pub, .ppt, .png, .docx, .pptx."
Again, amongst native files and vector-based file-formats, bitmap pictures are also asked/accepted.

Lexique
"Quels sont les formats de fichiers acceptés ?
Nous travaillons exclusivement à partir de fichiers « directement exploitables », c'est-à-dire qui ne nécessitent pas d’intervention de notre part pour envoi en impression. Les quatre formats de fichiers acceptés sont : pdf, jpg, tiff, ou eps."
Translation: Which file formats are accepted
We work exclusively from "directly printable" files, meaning files that do not need any re-working for printing. The four file formats accepted are pdf, jpg, tiff or eps.


Of course, don't mistake: these files specifications are not for the images embedded in the pages, but they are for the final page's files given to the print-shop and that will be directly printed.


In my "carreer" (I worked about 20 years in a print-shop, as press-man and pre-press operator), I saw many customers bringing simple pictures-files (mostly JPEG, but also PSD flattened and non-flattened) to be printed...
I always did redo the job in vector mode for texts and logos from non-flattened PSD to get the highest possible printing quality...
... and I always refused to print crappy jobs from flattened pictures. Sadly this make me loose many customers (as they generally do not understand the concept of "quality") but allowed me to keep my hands clean.


Sorry, in France it's more than 3 am... it's quite late for tonight! but I'll be eager to debate about the rest of your post tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

"Exceeding customer expectations" to me simply means that customer expectations weren't properly defined, communicated, and set effectively in the first place. Actually, the more I think about it the more I think exceeding customer expectations is not even possible. You can meet or fail to meet expectations but I don't think you could exceed them. Maybe you could give me an example of how that would appear?


He was much more holistic than that. This, taken from Wikipedia, gives a bit of insight: "A system is a network of interdependent components that work together to try to accomplish the aim of the system. A system must have an aim. Without an aim, there is no system. The aim of the system must be clear to everyone in the system. The aim must include plans for the future. The aim is a value judgment. The most important figures that one needs for management are unknown or unknowable, but successful management must nevertheless take account of them."

Exceeding customers expectations is happening all the time. People buy electronic devices not based on the their (customers) specifications but on the potential of having something really new that they did not expect could be done. Customers line up to be surprised.

It could also happen with press manufacturers but they are not in the business of trying to wow people beyond the usual expectations that their customers have. So in the press manufacturing field, meeting the expectations of the customer has resulted in what the industry gets. Nothing special.

Landa is trying to exceed expectations and what has that resulted in? Line ups for new concept presses. Maybe Landa will not succeed but he sure got people excited enough to put money down.

But one needs to consider the differences in businesses. One provides a product based on a specification provided by the customer while the other provides a product based on advancing a technology.

I don't know for sure but maybe print customers don't expect much and their expectations are easily met. But given an option where variability and delivery speeds are improved, their expectations can be changed.

Has not the last 10 years shown a continual change in expectation of lower cost, shorter runs and faster delivery at the same quality?

Yes Deming was holistic but he was also specific on how to solve problems. He down played experience and promoted the development of theory as a basis for solving practical problems. He was an engineer and also a statistician, so he had a very practical approach to both system issues and specific problem issues.

 

[gordo]

Exceeding customers expectations is happening all the time. People buy electronic devices not based on the their (customers) specifications but on the potential of having something really new that they did not expect could be done. Customers line up to be surprised.

I asked for an example of exceeding customers expectations from a print buying/supplying point of view. Can you give one?

Landa is trying to exceed expectations and what has that resulted in? Line ups for new concept presses. Maybe Landa will not succeed but he sure got people excited enough to put money down.

I don't think that exceeding expectations is what Landa is trying to accomplish. There does seem to be a halo effect with his press introduction. The Jobs reality distortion field?

I don't know for sure but maybe print customers don't expect much and their expectations are easily met. But given an option where variability and delivery speeds are improved, their expectations can be changed.

Different strokes for different folks. It's not a question of how much is expected. It's a question of determining the expectations and delivering on them.

Has not the last 10 years shown a continual change in expectation of lower cost, shorter runs and faster delivery at the same quality?

There's that bloody meaningless word "quality" again.
Print buyer's don't have an expectation of lower cost. I very much doubt that print buyers compare a quote from this year to the price they paid 10 years ago (for the same project specifications) to see if the cost is lower today. The cost is whatever today's cost is.
Shorter runs are also not an expectation. They are a function of today's marketing/sales environment.
Faster delivery? If faster (than?) delivery is a critical success factor for the print buyer then the ability to deliver on that expectation may give one printshop a competitive advantage over another.

gordo

 

[gordo]

So this is my view on quality. It's not just the level of the finished product, but the level of service that is provided from start to finish. In my shop, that starts with discussing the job with the customer, establishing what the goal of their project is and making sure that the outcome will be what they expect. And. If not. Then we give them options and solutions before we proceed. From there, the files go into prepress and are checked to make sure that they fit the specs of the job and the attention to detail and job specs continues through the rest of the shop until and including delivery. I think too many shops look at quality as defining the final perfect sample to the customer. And my shop does all of this. For every customer large or small. And we have some of the most competitive prices in our area. We are also a quick turn shop.

When this is the level that every job is completed at. And every employee knows/is expected to maintain this level of service, it becomes just what you do. It is not "special". It does not cost extra. It just is.

Bravo.

Gordo- to exceed a customers expectations shouldn't be impossible. In a day to day world where customer service is non-existent, providing good service generally exceeds most people's expectations.

I understand.

To go even beyond that to provide incite and assistance that a customer didn't even know they were lacking takes it further. Exceeding a customers expectations isn't necessarily possible only due to a lack of understanding their needs. But sometimes just providing key little bits of help that others wouldn't or couldn't, or going that extra little bit that you didn't have to to make sure the customer is taken care of can accomplish that too.

Good

--> posting from an iPhone is a pain. If anyone was wondering. LOL

I sometimes post from my iPod - try that sometime! LOL

gordo

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I don't think that exceeding expectations is what Landa is trying to accomplish. There does seem to be a halo effect with his press introduction. The Jobs reality distortion field?



It's not a question of how much is expected. It's a question of determining the expectations and delivering on them.



There's that bloody meaningless word "quality" again.

Shorter runs are also not an expectation. They are a function of today's marketing/sales environment.
Faster delivery? If faster (than?) delivery is a critical success factor for the print buyer then the ability to deliver on that expectation may give one printshop a competitive advantage over another.

gordo

Gordon, it is difficult to discuss this since you define and interpret words to mean what you want.

You say that "how much is expected" is not an expectation.

You say that shorter runs are not an expectation but then you say it is a function of today's marketing/sales environment. But it is the customer's marketing and sales groups that are asking for the short runs.

You contradict yourself when you talk about faster delivery. You imply it is not an expectation but then you say it is a critical factor...... on that expectation...

Also "quality" may be a meaningless word to you but it is not to me. I view it as meeting specifications. But that is just my personal view.

I think it is best for me to stay out of this discussion and let you and the printers discuss this in their own way.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

For example:

- look at Mimeo.com files specifications: what quality do you expect from Excel/Word/Publisher files???.

Depending on the design and final application in question, I could expect close to or equal to professional layout software...With a little bit of help from Acrobat Pro or automated PDF workflow software such as Prinergy for CMYK conversion from RGB (presuming press output, otherwise for digital it may not matter). For some other designs and final applications, I would expect a lot less from MS Office or MS DTP software. It all depends.

Countless small print shops that can’t afford to turn away customers that don’t have professional graphics software have worked out how to make a profit from such non-professional file formats.


Stephen Marsh

 

[MailGuru]

WOW! And to think this entire serious debate about quality, customer expectations, Deming, variation, Vistaprint, Mimeo, etc. .......... started with one of Gordo's light-hearted cartoons.

Gordo, you are certainly a master at getting people to think......

Best

-MailGuru

 

[Sev]

One huge problem in my opinion is not the client that does not recognize good printing, but the client that does not recognize bad printing.

-Sev

 

[Alith7]

Gordo...I think you started another "to linearize, or not to linearize" debate. LOL

 

[claude72]

presuming press output

Yes, of course!

Depending on the design and final application in question, I could expect close to or equal to professional layout software...With a little bit of help from Acrobat Pro or automated PDF workflow software such as Prinergy for CMYK conversion from RGB...

Technically, yes, you're right: a real skillfull designer, helped by a real PDF maker (not a crap like PDFcreator) is able to output from Publisher (or even Word) a PDF file close to professionnal specifications, and the rest of the job can be done by a skillfull pre-press operator with AcrobatPro, PitStop and/or the PDF workflow...

... but real skillfull designers do not use Publisher... meaning that the great majority of Publisher's users are out of the printing loop, beeing completely ignorant of printing specifications (and often also ignorant of language + typography + page layout basic rules) and they mostly make unprintable crap.
As you say, a good pre-press operator, with (generally more than) "a little bit of help" of the modern PDF tools can fix most of the technical issues of the PDF file, but doing (only) that will only turn this "unprintable crap PDF" to a printable crap PDF... it's "GIGO syndrom" : Garbage In, Garbage Out!!!

But I agree, the printed output will (generally) meet the (low level) expectations of the customer... but is it enough? and is it "quality printing"???

I remember a time when press-men stopped the press when they saw a spelling mistake...

(the last years I worked in my printshop, I had a regular job made by a non-designer customer with Publisher...: low quality pictures (with JPEG artefacts) stollen on internet, low resolutions, rasterized logos, no typography, no bleeds, almost no margins, PDF from an old bugged version of PDFcreator, to make 10 x 20 cm layout he created 2 A4 pages and put each face of his around 10 x 20 flyer almost around the middle of each A4 page, etc., etc. I guess that you can imagine the pain in the ass to fix such a crap!!! never mind, I always succeed to fix the issues in the PDF to match with offset-press printing technical specifications.
Sadly, it wasn't enough and it didn't match the "designer" expectations: we printed his doc as close as possible of the colours defined in the file, but he wasn't satisfied with the printing of a specific custom colour... just because he defined a pink-violet colour in his file (in RVB of course, with an uncalibrated display monitor, of course) BUT he expected to get on the offset-printed paper exactly the same brownish colour than his uncalibrated low-end office inkjet printer outputs )

 

[Alith7]

(the last years I worked in my printshop, I had a regular job made by a non-designer customer with Publisher...: low quality pictures (with JPEG artefacts) stollen on internet, low resolutions, rasterized logos, no typography, no bleeds, almost no margins, PDF from an old bugged version of PDFcreator, to make 10 x 20 cm layout he created 2 A4 pages and put each face of his around 10 x 20 flyer almost around the middle of each A4 page, etc., etc. I guess that you can imagine the pain in the ass to fix such a crap!!! never mind, I always succeed to fix the issues in the PDF to match with offset-press printing technical specifications.
Sadly, it wasn't enough and it didn't match the "designer" expectations: we printed his doc as close as possible of the colours defined in the file, but he wasn't satisfied with the printing of a specific custom colour... just because he defined a pink-violet colour in his file (in RVB of course, with an uncalibrated display monitor, of course) BUT he expected to get on the offset-printed paper exactly the same brownish colour than his uncalibrated low-end office inkjet printer outputs )

I have to ask...
If this was a regular customer, why was no attempt made to educate and help the customer? We get customers in like this all the time. They come from printers that just took what they got and printed and never tried to help the customer. If that's the case, then the printer is more at fault than the customer.
If you did try, then apologies. There are customer like that out there, and we usually end up showing them the door. We have a design house customer that USED to be stubborn like that. He would get pissed, "take his business else where" for a month or two, and always ended up coming back, trying a new sales rep every time. And the cycle would start again. Finally, he landed on my desk because no one else wanted to deal with him, I started bouncing his files, telling him flat out when things were not going to work the way he wanted, and either giving him options, or running with it as long as I had an email stating that he was aware their might be complications. He has now been a great customer of mine for years. I'm prepress manager, not a sales rep or CSR. But he pays well, brings in good work, and as long as I'm the only one who deals with him, we have no problems. Sometimes, "Quality" is knowing when to pop the customer's arrogance bubble...

 

[claude72]

If you did try, then apologies.

I ALWAYS helped my customers to improve their files, always.
I never acted like these printers who leave their customers in their mistakes, saying "No problem" even when they have re-do all the job, or print crappy files as-is.
It in my nature: I cannot leave somebody in a mistake, I cannot print a piece of crap... I always try to push people up, explaining the mistakes and how to make a good job, and I always try to improve quality, correcting spelling mistakes, replacing JPEG logos by vectors, correcting tones and colours in pictures, etc.
Some of my customers accept eagerly, but some get pissed-off, arguing that with the other printers things are easier and there is not such problems (and that's the main reason why most printers just took what they got and printed and never tried to help the customer...).
But when a guy wants to make a layout job just because he has a PC with any software-that-makes-funny-things-on-the screen-and-a-PDF-button, believing that it's-easy-just-click-on-some-buttons-and-the-computer-does-all-the-job, there so much to teach that it's almost impossible: it's concentrate 2 years of school-teaching in a one hour chat

With this particular customer, I did try... and retry... and reretry and even more... explaining to him the basis: why bleeds and how to make them with Publisher, how to set margins, how to set the correct size of the page in Publisher to fit the size of the document (and the bleeds), how to make PDF...
And as he is Australian, living and working in France, despite he speaks quite good french, I even wrote him explanations e-mails in english, to be sure he will understand... the only improvement I succeeded to get was the update of his out-of-age PDFcreator to the last version... for all the rest, I lost my time... Finally, I gave-up: the three-monthly 4-pages newsletter was sent to a subcontractor, and for the flyers I carried on correcting the same mistakes again and again until I quit...

 

[CathieHarris]

There is also the customer that must create their own PDF files and you cannot make them fix the files, no matter how hard you try. So out comes the prepress knowledge of piecing apart the PDF file, down to one line at a time if necessary, to make the project fit within the parameters of what needs to be printed.

I have a client that lays out a newsletter in InDesign, although doesn't know how to use it, and we tried desperately to get her to understand how to lay it out using the preprinted template and staying within the guidelines of that template. She does try hard, but I take her files each month, overlay them to the preprinted shell electronically, make them 34% opacity to see how they'll fit, and will move an individual page number if necessary. Sometimes I have two or three pieces of one PDF on a page just to get it to print correctly and look nice.

Sometimes we have to take care of the customer in a very unorthodox way because they simply are not trainable. But to get them a job that is what they want, we have to piecemeal together a job and get 'er done. Time's a wastin' and if you're beating your head against a wall, it's oftentimes easier to just fix the thing yourself using, like I said, some unorthodox methods. Does it take extra time? Yes, it does, but not enough to risk losing a client.

 

[claude72]

2. - this does NOT show that they are "incompetent" - one of our PressWise customer took 3,750 orders from Shutterfly on Monday ( yes, all in one day ! ) - and they were probably images taken with iPhones or cheap digital cameras, and if they did have a profile embedded in the image is was probably sRGB ( which is just fine ) and they printed them and shipped them without touching them and customers were happy - how is that "incompetent" ?

As far as I understand (sorry, english is not my native language) you're talking about printing RGB pictures in RGB files... in that case, whatever the embedded profil is, the pictures/files will be converted in CMYK for printing with the CMYK profile of the printer, a profile adapted to the situation (paper, printing process and other parameters that might exist and be involved).


I'm talking about offset printers who want CMYK images (not RGB), claiming that they don't use any profile and don't use colour management, and for that reason they ask their customers to NOT use any profile and/or to REMOVE the embedded profiles in their CMYK picture!

But:

1- it is impossible to convert a picture from RGB to CMYK without a profile... you know that even if you simply click on "CMYK mode" in the Photoshop "Picture" menu, the conversion is done using the (defaut) profile selected in the "Colour preferences" of Photoshop...
But, as far as I have understood by talking with some of these guys, in fact they simply do not understand that a RVB to CMYK conversion needs a profile, they do not understand/know that Photoshop has a selected defaut profile, they do not understand that there is always is a factory selected defaut profile in Photoshop, even if the user hasn't selected one, and they do not understand that this profile is ALWAYS used by Photoshop for the RGB to CMYK conversion, even when simply clicking "CMYK mode".
And, mainly, they believe (wrongly) that to convert an RGB picture to CMYK with a profile, you need to click on the "Convert with profile" item and select a profile... otherwise the conversion is made without profile!!!

2- once the picture is converted in CMYK mode, the profile that has been used during the conversion process has already made the most important part of its actions: it has made the separation, set the TAC and the GCR-UCR, set the max black value and adapted the dot-gain to the paper and the printing process... so the picture is already prepared for the paper and printing process parameters defined in the profile and the remaining job of the embedded profile is only the display correction!
So, removing the profile from a CMYK picture is useless for printing because this action DOES NOT change the adaptations already made in the picture, but only remove the display correction.
But, as the display correction is removed, the operator sees the colour changing on the screen when he removes the profile and then he believes (wrongly) that the picture is modified, althought it is not: only the display is modified.

In the first case, the printer ask the customer to do something impossible, believing that it is possible...
In the second case, the printer ask the customer to make a useless action, believing that it is an important/essential action...
So (in my opinion) in both cases these demands show that the printer is incompetent in colour management.


And the worst is that by asking people to not use a specific profile, they let them use the factory defaut CMYK profile, which, in the french releases of Photoshop since AFAIK Photoshop 2.5 and up to CS4 is a piece of crap inadapted for printing in France!

3. Not sure I agree that "Illustrator is not layout software" - most professional package designers use it,

That's up to you!
But in fact most professional package designers use (or used) it mainly because at the beginning of DTP, when only XPress and Illustrator were available, Illustrator was the more easy to use for packaging... not because Illustrator is better, but mainly because XPress is worst for packaging!!!
Today, professional package designers tend to give up from Illustrator and begin to use InDesign... especially since CS4 and the interesting display pivoting of InDesign 6.

... and submit the files to their flexo house as an .ai file, as the service provider often needs the layers to process the parts as required.

No problem to use layers in InDesign...

In Illustrator, font management, text blocks, image blocks, image handling are pain in the ass...:
- Were are the bleeds and margins in the page settings of Illustrator?
- Try to crop a picture in Illustrator: you'll have to manually mask the unused part of the picture... with InDesign you simply move the limits of the image-block.
- Try to embed a duo-tones picture in an Illustrator document: it will be automatically (badly) converted in CMYK...
(because Illustrator accepts only ONE colorimetric mode... so it is impossible to have a duo-tones picture in a CMYK or RGB document... hopefully for Illustrator users, the RGB workflow is still not yet commonly in use!!!)
- Try to modify the size of a text block using the size's fields in the "Transform" palette: this will modifie the scale of the text (horizontally if you change the width, and vertically if you change the heights)
- And what a stupid idea Adobe had to make Illustrator outputs hybrid .AI and .PDF files by defaut, dramatically raising the weight of these files and confusing users?


AFAIK, only the users of plotters are really stuck with Illustrator, as the plug-ins used to drive their plotters are often developped for Illustrator and CorelDraw, but not for InDesign.

4. As for PSD files - same holds true - there is NOTHING about a PSD file that would degrade the image, ...

You're right! but again I didn't talk about images in PSD... (PSD is great for pictures when imported in an InDesign page-layout!!!)

... but I'm talking about page-layout completely made in Photoshop and sent to the printer as PSD files!
(For example, a 4 pages leaflet is made with 4 PSD files, each page being one .PSD picture!!!)

With 2 possibilities:

- PSD flattened : everything is rasterized... same crap as JPEG or TIFF pages

- PSD non-flattened : in such a file, texts are in vector mode (that's good), but logos are rasterized and 1-bit pictures are in contone mode (that's crap)...
If the printer is a good one, he can keep the text in vector mode... (the rest remains rasterized) it's not that easy, and not that safe, but it can be done... but most printers are not able to do this job and simply flatten the PSD, turnong it into crap

 

[Alith7]

But in fact most professional package designers use (or used) it mainly because at the beginning of DTP, when only XPress and Illustrator were available, Illustrator was the more easy to use for packaging... not because Illustrator is better, but mainly because XPress is worst for packaging!!!
Today, professional package designers tend to give up from Illustrator and begin to use InDesign... especially since CS4 and the interesting display pivoting of InDesign 6.

first, its not worth getting upset about.

second, Do you design packaging? Do you work in the packaging industry? Do you have to deal with these files for a packaging manufacturing process on a day to day basis? Please do not make assumptions on what you THINK is better for the industry. There is a reason packaging designers use Illustrator. when you are manipulating panels and art, adjusting to fit text on a panel, or checking fit for the die that it is being produced on, all other programs are a pain in the A$$. When I'm working on a packaging design, if I need to adjust a curve of a background element, or tweak the overlay of a gradient, I don't want to have to go to a bunch of random other files. That's why we didn't use Quark. Adobe has been fuzzing the lines but there is a reason that they have soo many different programs.

Photoshop - is for Photo editing. it says it in the name. And yes, it should NOT be used for anything else.

Illustrator - Vector reproduction and design and layout. again, the name says what it does. Along with working well for other design and layout concepts. but no, NOT for multi-page or complex layouts.

Indesign - was designed originally to compete with Quark as a layout and assembly program. compile graphics and photos, with blocks of large text into brochures, books, documents. That they keep adding features is great. but it's used too often for what it is not. One of the main reasons it is not used for packaging is the way it imports objects. If I need to place art in a dieline, I need to know where all the sizes are. Indesign sees lines and blocks them by their outer line thickness, which is NOT the dimensions of the die. also, unless you have high-res screen view on the hole time (which can be a hassle if you have a lot of graphics) you're never quite sure where everything is.

Dreamweaver (and other assorted web development programs) - are for web development. can you design some crude web pages in the other programs, yes, but you shouldn't.


Basically, it comes down to this. People always have and always WILL use what they know. I have even gotten a tri-fold brochure done in Powerpoint. the only program the lady knew. And, you can argue all you want about how files should be submitted, how you will "Only" accept them in certain formats. And then have to switch jobs every few years as your employer goes out of business. Files will come in how they do. you can either adapt, help the customer and roll with it, or make yourself, your customer, and your life miserable by always trying to want things that won't happen.

 

[claude72]

first, its not worth getting upset about.

??? I'm not upset about anything. You have your ideas, I have mine and we debate freely about them.

second, Do you design packaging? Do you work in the packaging industry?

No, not as a regular day-job... but I designed some boxes in my life...
I first tried XPress (with many troubles), then (listening to "good" advices of professionnal packaging designers) I tried Illustrator (which I found less bad than XPress, but not easy to use for this job) and finally InDesign, which is the best for me.

Please do not make assumptions on what you THINK is better for the industry.

Perhaps you want to keep using Illustrator, perhaps like all people in your company, or country, but you live in the USA, I live in France: we don't have the same experience, we don't have the same habits to make our daily job and we don't have the same source of informations...

... and in my part of Europe people are now understanding that Illustrator has been historically used because it was less inadapted than XPress, and that InDesign with all the improvement it got these last years has now become more easy to use than Illustrator... so, packaging design is (little by little) switching to InDesign: that's neither what I think, nor an assumption, but that's a fact.

Indesign...
... One of the main reasons it is not used for packaging is the way it imports objects. If I need to place art in a dieline, I need to know where all the sizes are. Indesign sees lines and blocks them by their outer line thickness, which is NOT the dimensions of the die. also, unless you have high-res screen view on the hole time (which can be a hassle if you have a lot of graphics) you're never quite sure where everything is.

To view imported object in full resolution you don't need to keep the hi-res view the whole time: you can switch from low-res to hi-res (and then back to lo-res) by a simple right click on the box of the imported objects, it takes less than 2 seconds.

But if you want to place imported object with real precision, the best way is to NOT import them, but either create them directly in InDesign for the simple objects (in the last versions of InDesign the design tools are almost the same as Illustrator) or copy/paste from Illustrator to InDesign.

People always have and always WILL use what they know.

Yeeeesssss... that's perfectly right! And that's perhaps also why many packaging designers keep using Illustrator...

I have even gotten a tri-fold brochure done in Powerpoint. the only program the lady knew.

Only one? lucky you... I would have love having only one PowerPoint layout to be printed!!!

And, you can argue all you want about how files should be submitted, how you will "Only" accept them in certain formats.

I guess we do not understand each other... the point is not how files should be submitted to printers...

(I have myself worked about 30 years in a print-shop, the last 19 years as a pre-press operator, and I have processed enough kinds of exotic more or less unadapted and badly built files (including some files from PowerPoint, but also Flash, Pages, Works/iWorks, Word, Excel, Scribus, Paint, Ragtime, even TextEdit and SVG files) to know quite good that todays printers have to be able to process all kind of exotic files to survive, and I don't need to be convinced of this fact)

... the original point of this topic is quality in print, and I simply said that quality is far away to be the main concern of those printers asking for bitmap files (JPEG, TIFF or PSD) as final page-files.

 

[Alith7]

you're right..we did get off topic.
Truce.

I'm not sure about packaging in Europe. I did just help one of the forum members with a 4-color black file problem. He was from Europe, and we had a profiling confusion at first because the rendering profile he used processed the PDF file "correctly" and my standard (US Standard) profile convert everything backwards. Literally. 1-color blacks became 4-color and 4-color 1-color. That's why these debates are fun! You learn all kinds of new stuff!

 

[claude72]

you're right..we did get off topic.
Truce.

Just a little bit! no problem for me...

I'm not sure about packaging in Europe.

It's not a "rush"... it's a slow change...

I did just help one of the forum members with a 4-color black file problem. He was from Europe, and we had a profiling confusion at first because the rendering profile he used processed the PDF file "correctly" and my standard (US Standard) profile convert everything backwards. Literally. 1-color blacks became 4-color and 4-color 1-color. That's why these debates are fun! You learn all kinds of new stuff!

Did you fix the problem?

 

[Alith7]

Just a little bit! no problem for me...
It's not a "rush"... it's a slow change...
Did you fix the problem?

I did. He told me what profile he was using, FOGRA I think. I switched my viewing profile to that and everything was great.

 

[claude72]

He told me what profile he was using, FOGRA I think.

And we are right back to quality in print, with the use of the profiles...!!!

Which Fogra did he use? 27 or 39?

Adobe's Fogra27 profile is the standard factory defaut profile in french Adobe suites since CS3.
It's not exactly a real Fogra27, it is an Adobe "creation" based on the Fogra27 specifications with some simplifications... and I wonder what the Adobe ingineers did smoke when they created that piece of ***** because it basically doesn't respect the standard specifications of offset printing (TAC=350%, Max black value=100%), giving some troubles to printers...
Sadly, as it is the factory defaut profile in Photoshop CS3 and 4, all the people that are not enough aware of colour managing to change the profile made unprintable CMYK pictures, with to much ink coverage and to much black... it was a big mess for french printers!!!


I quit this job with a CS4, but I have heard, without being able to confirm, that newer CS (5 or 6) sold in France use a better profile based on Fogra39 as factory defaut profile... and that's the first version where Adobe has set a correct factory defaut profile...

... since all previous versions had a bad profile inadapted to offset printing in France:
- first, a SWOP profile made for US specifications, with US inks... although french printers use european inks (slightly different of US inks) and different ways to copy plates (giving a different dot gain).
- then an "Euroscale Coated v2", with a TAC=350%...
- then the Adobe's Fogra27, THE piece of crap: TAC=350%, Max black value=100%, and a magenta colour dominant...