This Saphira, how is the Print Planet doing with this concept. Please offer up your positive and/or negative experiences with this concept. One stop shopping from a corp that manufactures none of it. Isn't this industry still an art, that requires the genuine expertises of the individual product technicians and manufacturers? It's funny, but when these practices were being done because each consumable product was the best working, the whole Print Planet was much happier, profitable and functioning to its fullest extent that kept the synergies going. Now it has turned into 'Bundled 'Deals' and greed, the old mighty dollar has replaced the expertises. Is this telling our remaining Print Planet something, or is it just shrugged off as coincidence? Your replies are invited and encouraged tremendously. THINK carefully however before doing so. Thank you very much in advance. D
Saphira Experiences - Happy Bundles?
- Thread starter D Ink Man
- Start date
Late Breaking News: Heidelberg has just sold 10,000 refrigerators to 5,000 Eskimos. They actually convinced them that they needed one in both rooms of the igloo. Still more remarkable, Heidelberg didn't even manufacture the units. But they did throw in a fully stocked freezer of whale blubber for the buyers. Sadly, no warranty if the refrigerators break down and the whale blubber spoils. How about that!
chevalier
Well-known member
It's branding plain and simple and it is marketing genius. It's business for a profit and people have eaten it up on the consumer side for decades. Businesses and therefore business people are susceptible to the same marketing and perceptions.
The best way I've heard this explained was in business school. The professor asked, "What laundry detergent did your mother use?" Before anyone could answer he finished "... and what detergent do you use?" A quick poll was taken and something like 90% of the class used the same product. Nobody could explain why Tide, Calgon or All was better they just "knew" (perceived) it was better. The same logic applies to just about any house-hold consumable toothpaste, deodorant, dishwashing fluid, coke vs. pepsi. Any marketing professional will tell you these attachments via perception are extremely hard to break.
Heidelberg has a strong brand perception from their equipment and they cleverly realized they could potentially increase profits by branching that perception into consumable products to supplement their core products. They chose a portfolio of products they determined to meet quality and variance standards compatible with their core brand then branded them Saphira.
The game is called capitalism and the rules are compete or subside.
The best way I've heard this explained was in business school. The professor asked, "What laundry detergent did your mother use?" Before anyone could answer he finished "... and what detergent do you use?" A quick poll was taken and something like 90% of the class used the same product. Nobody could explain why Tide, Calgon or All was better they just "knew" (perceived) it was better. The same logic applies to just about any house-hold consumable toothpaste, deodorant, dishwashing fluid, coke vs. pepsi. Any marketing professional will tell you these attachments via perception are extremely hard to break.
Heidelberg has a strong brand perception from their equipment and they cleverly realized they could potentially increase profits by branching that perception into consumable products to supplement their core products. They chose a portfolio of products they determined to meet quality and variance standards compatible with their core brand then branded them Saphira.
The game is called capitalism and the rules are compete or subside.
gordo
Well-known member
But doesn't Heidelberg also add value? If they supply the whole solution then if there's a problem there is only one supplier for the printer to look to for a solution. No pass the blame games.
best, gordon p
chevalier
Well-known member
I'd state that value is subject to perception. I'm not implying one way or the other that Heidelberg is adding or subtracting value. That would be up to the customer to decide whether the Saphira premium is congruent to the increase in value added. One would be safe to assume that if one chose to buy Saphira branded products for a premium they would expect and demand added value.
Another analogy to this scenario is with Apple. Apple sells computers and when you buy the computer from their online store you can buy various upgrades. Apple charges a premium for their quality and variance control they demand from their vendors (they don't make RAM or Hardrives). Yes, you can buy cheaper RAM or a cheaper hard-drive from another vendor (maybe even the same vendor apple is buying from) and install it into your Apple computer but that RAM or drive has not been through Apple's extensive quality and variance control. Is the part worth the premium? You, the consumer has to decide. This is the beauty of capitalism: CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE.
Another analogy to this scenario is with Apple. Apple sells computers and when you buy the computer from their online store you can buy various upgrades. Apple charges a premium for their quality and variance control they demand from their vendors (they don't make RAM or Hardrives). Yes, you can buy cheaper RAM or a cheaper hard-drive from another vendor (maybe even the same vendor apple is buying from) and install it into your Apple computer but that RAM or drive has not been through Apple's extensive quality and variance control. Is the part worth the premium? You, the consumer has to decide. This is the beauty of capitalism: CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE.
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Perception huh?
Perception huh?
You have made quite some apple and orange comparisons when you compare lithographic consumables to toothpaste, detergent, computers, etc. What you are stating for detergents is what is right for the Print Planet, same concept. It's Ok to be able to have a choice in either Tide, All, Calgon all similar products. And by the way all those companies you mentioned MANUFACTURED and had CONTROL over their wares. The lithographic process, you may or may nok know, is a very complex interaction between chemicals that are used to meet an end use product, PRINT. It takes the highly skilled work of individual consumable MANUFACTURED products people to make the process work. These same individuals SPECIALIZE in the products they MAKE. This is how these expertises PROVIDE VALUE for the PRINTER. Using your analogy; would you buy dental floss, toilet paper, eye drops, gasoline, meat, fertilizer, vegetables as example from the same CAPITALIST who did not manufacture these diversely different products and only peddled them? I don't think so. Litho's different my friend. Everything works together because of the individual expertises. Not one peddler can provide ALL the staples for optimum performance and results in this arena. Hope you better understand the point now. One other comment when you buy into the BUNDLE, you have no 'CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE'. Key point. D
Perception huh?
You have made quite some apple and orange comparisons when you compare lithographic consumables to toothpaste, detergent, computers, etc. What you are stating for detergents is what is right for the Print Planet, same concept. It's Ok to be able to have a choice in either Tide, All, Calgon all similar products. And by the way all those companies you mentioned MANUFACTURED and had CONTROL over their wares. The lithographic process, you may or may nok know, is a very complex interaction between chemicals that are used to meet an end use product, PRINT. It takes the highly skilled work of individual consumable MANUFACTURED products people to make the process work. These same individuals SPECIALIZE in the products they MAKE. This is how these expertises PROVIDE VALUE for the PRINTER. Using your analogy; would you buy dental floss, toilet paper, eye drops, gasoline, meat, fertilizer, vegetables as example from the same CAPITALIST who did not manufacture these diversely different products and only peddled them? I don't think so. Litho's different my friend. Everything works together because of the individual expertises. Not one peddler can provide ALL the staples for optimum performance and results in this arena. Hope you better understand the point now. One other comment when you buy into the BUNDLE, you have no 'CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE'. Key point. D
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inkinveins
Active member
D Ink man,
You reference the fact that " everyhthng works together due to individual expertise ", How can you assume that Sapphira ( Heidelberg ) has not employed ( contracted ) people with these individual expertise. You are wrong, Litho is not different, it is a manufacturing process just like any other. If I was'nt a printer, I would be very intrigued with " The one stop shopping ". The bundled ready to go print shop seems to becoming more popular, just ask Xpedx. I would hate to buy parts for a car from different manufacturers and put it together myself. That sounds more like a hobby than a business. There is nothing wrong with distrubuting products that one does not manufacture, It happens everyday in every industry. It is no longer Graphic arts, It is Graphic Science. The industry has evolved, It is maybe time that you might want to evolve along with it, Or be left behind. There is obviously some personal vendetta against the machine ( Corporate consumables ) and I am not sure what it is, since this is not the first time you have bashed a certain Goliath, and don't worry my response has been thoroughly thought through.
You reference the fact that " everyhthng works together due to individual expertise ", How can you assume that Sapphira ( Heidelberg ) has not employed ( contracted ) people with these individual expertise. You are wrong, Litho is not different, it is a manufacturing process just like any other. If I was'nt a printer, I would be very intrigued with " The one stop shopping ". The bundled ready to go print shop seems to becoming more popular, just ask Xpedx. I would hate to buy parts for a car from different manufacturers and put it together myself. That sounds more like a hobby than a business. There is nothing wrong with distrubuting products that one does not manufacture, It happens everyday in every industry. It is no longer Graphic arts, It is Graphic Science. The industry has evolved, It is maybe time that you might want to evolve along with it, Or be left behind. There is obviously some personal vendetta against the machine ( Corporate consumables ) and I am not sure what it is, since this is not the first time you have bashed a certain Goliath, and don't worry my response has been thoroughly thought through.
Tell me inkinveins, what is a more complex and a variable driven process than Litho? Brain surgury maybe you could argue!? You say the industry has evolved. The industry HAS EVOLVED, into one that is quite mature, more competitive and certainly less profitable than it was 10 to 20 yers ago. And it is still an ART. When and if we get back to the ART form, and the individual expertises of manufactured supplied consumables, perhaps the profits and value will truly retun to the print owners. As long as it mainly $ driven, than the Print Planet, Litho particularly, will continue to spiral downwards. I thought too my friend, that is the reason and reponses for this post. Sincerely, D.
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IMHO buying all of your consumables from one source is the only way to go.
We buy everything from Fuji and this gives us greater purchasing power(all of
our products are discounted due to the volume). We told Fuji which products
that we wanted to purchase so that we always know what we are getting. Having
said that, I think that the complaint being brought up against the "big one" is that
they "rebrand" or "relabel" their products. That can turn into a problem since
they can change the core product that they are buying but keep the same "name"
on it. Big corporations change who they align themselves with all the time. This can
turn into a problem for us printers since consistency is the name of the game.....and
making money.
We buy everything from Fuji and this gives us greater purchasing power(all of
our products are discounted due to the volume). We told Fuji which products
that we wanted to purchase so that we always know what we are getting. Having
said that, I think that the complaint being brought up against the "big one" is that
they "rebrand" or "relabel" their products. That can turn into a problem since
they can change the core product that they are buying but keep the same "name"
on it. Big corporations change who they align themselves with all the time. This can
turn into a problem for us printers since consistency is the name of the game.....and
making money.
I am sure that the vendors that supply Heidelberg with the Saphira branded products are careful to provide the same quality products and support that they would provide to customers directly. If someone wants to buy from Heidelberg (or any one else for that matter) I do not see why that should be a problem.
Steve Werner
Member
Companies have been what they used to call bundling for years and it can be a great way to improve purchasing power. Many of the manufactureres private label products for Fuji, Heidelberg, etc. So in most cases your getting the same product. My issue is this, one company cannnot effectively represent all of those products. Using Fuji as an example, not to pick on them, how can they effectively represent coating, ink, fountain solution, plates, and equipment ?
The Point of the Post is now being Revealed!
The Point of the Post is now being Revealed!
Quote: Companies have been what they used to call bundling for years and it can be a great way to improve purchasing power. Many of the manufactureres private label products for Fuji, Heidelberg, etc. So in most cases your getting the same product. My issue is this, one company cannnot effectively represent all of those products. Using Fuji as an example, not to pick on them, how can they effectively represent coating, ink, fountain solution, plates, and equipment ?
Quote #2: If you fit into the one size fits all concept they are selling, then all is well. When you don't, will they have a fix or just let you flap in the wind? Also IMHO bundling tends to have hidden costs that will show up eventually.
Ha Ha, now we are getting to the point. Thank you Steve Werner and BillJ respectively. D
The Point of the Post is now being Revealed!
Quote: Companies have been what they used to call bundling for years and it can be a great way to improve purchasing power. Many of the manufactureres private label products for Fuji, Heidelberg, etc. So in most cases your getting the same product. My issue is this, one company cannnot effectively represent all of those products. Using Fuji as an example, not to pick on them, how can they effectively represent coating, ink, fountain solution, plates, and equipment ?
Quote #2: If you fit into the one size fits all concept they are selling, then all is well. When you don't, will they have a fix or just let you flap in the wind? Also IMHO bundling tends to have hidden costs that will show up eventually.
Ha Ha, now we are getting to the point. Thank you Steve Werner and BillJ respectively. D
J
Jack-Of-Plates
Guest
H-Berg has done the leg work for you.. .
H-Berg has done the leg work for you.. .
So H-Berg rebrands third party vendors consumables. Im a little confused are you NOT happy with the price, the products, the technical service, or the idea of buying from one vendor?? or is someone playing in your swatchbook .. .
I would think for a mom and pop shop that has H-Berg equipment would benefit by :
1. As stated earlier it gives them more purchasing power.
2. H-Berg has taken the guess work out of what products performs well or the best on their equipment. No need to reinvent the wheel.
3. You have a technical rep for the consumables being purchased.
4. When a prepress/press mechanic comes in for service and sees that one of the products that H-Berg sells is not performing as it should. It will help shorten troubleshooting time/costs over the long run. (ie. knowing what the proper conductivity, ph, brix, temp, etc of a specific product should be)
5. Perhaps lower shipping costs because its all coming from the same vendor.
6. Only one phone call for support when there is an issue.
7. Simplified billing and check writing
Its can be a turnkey system. I don't think they make you buy everything from them. I think you can do trial periods with the products. You can piecemeal which product you like or dont like before signing anything.
IMHO. I think bundling has a large added value if done right.
H-Berg has done the leg work for you.. .
So H-Berg rebrands third party vendors consumables. Im a little confused are you NOT happy with the price, the products, the technical service, or the idea of buying from one vendor?? or is someone playing in your swatchbook .. .
I would think for a mom and pop shop that has H-Berg equipment would benefit by :
1. As stated earlier it gives them more purchasing power.
2. H-Berg has taken the guess work out of what products performs well or the best on their equipment. No need to reinvent the wheel.
3. You have a technical rep for the consumables being purchased.
4. When a prepress/press mechanic comes in for service and sees that one of the products that H-Berg sells is not performing as it should. It will help shorten troubleshooting time/costs over the long run. (ie. knowing what the proper conductivity, ph, brix, temp, etc of a specific product should be)
5. Perhaps lower shipping costs because its all coming from the same vendor.
6. Only one phone call for support when there is an issue.
7. Simplified billing and check writing
Its can be a turnkey system. I don't think they make you buy everything from them. I think you can do trial periods with the products. You can piecemeal which product you like or dont like before signing anything.
IMHO. I think bundling has a large added value if done right.
Steve Werner
Member
At the end of the day, Heidelberg will not have all of the best products, there will be other products that perform better. Generally when bundling you pay a premium for consumables in order to pay off equipment or get money back at the end of they year. Great if your company is cash short and it will afford you an easy entry to a piece of equipment or don't mind paying extra to have someone give you a rebate at the end of year. I'd prefer to keep my cash and do with it what I choose. I stand by my statement that all materials cannot be fairly represented by one manufacturer. Companies have been in and out of this for years, it's just another industry fad that will fade like consignment or inventory management.
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