Success running NCR on inkjet light production printer?

[joycerobinson]

We are looking to move from offset press to digital printing completely, but have had issues with longer NCR runs on digital laser printers (Xerox D125 and V180)
We've had a few sales reps suggest an inkjet printer, but not sure how well they run NCR. Without a heated fuser, maybe NCR runs better?
Is anyone running large runs NCR on an inkjet printer?

 

[Ynot_UK]

Production inkjet technology comes with an enormous price tag and footprint. Perhaps you can quantify “large runs”? Depending on the quality you’re seeking, maybe look at Riso.

 

[Possumgal]

Funny thing, I used to have problems running 3-part on a V180 and an i700. Two-part NCR was no problem. The best thing I found was to fudge the weight setting a bit, but I don't remember which direction I went in. I believe I set it heavier to slow the machine down a bit. Try that.

 

[gregbatch]

If you are wanting to go 100% digital, then inkjet is priceless. One recommended addition is the Kyocera 15000c. You are limited to uncoated papers, but it delivers very-near-offset quality printing. It is an ideal machine to replace offset, especially for all of the spot color work you typically do, plus carbonless, and standard window envelopes. In most cases you will be able to run at a fraction of the cost of toner based machines. Because you are paying for ink, heavy coverage jobs will likely come out ahead on the toner machine flat clicks, but we're talking coverage well beyond typical business printing anyway. Get it from Ricoh, not Kyocera. Everything but the inkjet engine is Ricoh, and they offer a service contract for a few tenths of a cent per click. Never struggle with "2 -color" Word files again. Just push the button. Are you charging to make that 2-color newsletter printable every month? You can probably print the color for the same price and still come out ahead. The price of the machine is in the range of toner based machines.

 

[azehnali]

what issue do you have running them on the D125 and V180?

 

[SoggyWinter]

Epson's Workforce Enterprise inkjets go up to 100 impressions/minute are around $25,000 so that might be an option for a lower cost inkjet solution if you need variable data and CMYK. For single color, consider a duplicator.

I've run up to 15000 sheets of NCR brand 3 part on my V3100 without a whole lot of issues.

 

[gregbatch]

Epson's Workforce Enterprise inkjets go up to 100 impressions/minute are around $25,000 so that might be an option for a lower cost inkjet solution if you need variable data and CMYK. For single color, consider a duplicator.

I've run up to 15000 sheets of NCR brand 3 part on my V3100 without a whole lot of issues.

I like the Enterprise machines, but last I checked the ink was very expensive for a print for pay application.

 

[gregbatch]

Stay away from Riso. The quality isn't there and the ink is also too expensive for print for pay. Aftermarket inks can bring the cost down, but the quality is only adequate for transactional printing.

 

[jwheeler]

We are a county in-plant and we run at least a pallet of NCR forms each week. The amount was causing issues on digital toner presses in the past, so we switched to digital duplicators. These use a liquid ink and a master film that is automatically made inside the printer. There is no heat, and an extremely short paper path, so the NCR coating doesn't cause any feeding issues. They are not high resolution, but this is not normally an issue for NCR forms which are meant to be transactional, not high quality marketing pieces. We had the Duplo line for about 5 years and they worked fine. When it came time to replace them, we went to bid about 2 years ago and switched to RISO SF9450's. The units have worked about the same as the Duplo's, but do have occasional double-sheet feeding issues. These digital duplicators are very low cost to purchase (I think they were under $5k US each), and the cost per impression is the same or less than what you'd pay on a monochrome digital toner press. The more prints you get out of a master, the lower the cost per sheet. We can usually run 10-15 reams before the film starts breaking down and we need to re-send. The digital duplicators come in 1 or 2 colors, and you can easily swap the color for a number of standard colors such as red, green, reflex blue, and black. They also run off a standard power outlet.

One thing that could be a drawback for someone who is used to running an offset press, is these units only hold 1-2 reams in the feeding tray. This is not an issue for us because we have two side-by-side and one operator can easily run both at the same time. We have our operators load one ream at a time in each because it's easier to quickly grab out the printed ream and press start on the next ream so it continues running while you're stacking up your NCR paper on the glue padding station.

RISO also carries a line of full-color inkjet units which I think is what @gregbatch is referring to. We have not had experience with those, but they appear to have the same feeding systems and paper path, along with no heat, so I'm sure they'd work well in that sense - but I'd imagine the cost per print is higher than the digital duplicator line.

EDIT: We sell our forms by the case (5,000 sheets) and it's quite common for our customers to order 2-3 cases of each form. So we're running 5,000-15,000 sheets per run. If customers want numbered NCR forms, we print those using a variable data software on our Konica Minolta 6136's, which are monochrome toner digital presses. Also, most of our forms are 1-sided. When we run a 2-sided form, they are typically shorter runs, and we usually run those on the Konica 6136's as well, but we could run them on the RISO's if we wanted to.

 

[TJPrinter]

For single color ncr, I would second the digital duplicator. I run 2 older Ricoh HQ9000 that I have never had a service contract on and have over 10 million prints on them. They are work horses that fit certain jobs perfectly. I don’t do as much ncr today as I did years ago but I run thousands of single color envelopes on them every week. Large ncr jobs I send out and even if I still had the offset presses, I would still send the longer runs out. For a job of 20,000 2 part 1/1 I save about $50 doing the work in-house and it’s just not worth it.

I can’t believe that the Riso is only $5,000, I paid more like $15,000 back in 2009 for the Ricoh HQ9000. If you stick to a digital duplicator that creates 600 dpi masters you’ll be good for ncr forms that have light areas of screens. Not as clean as the toner screens but acceptable for general ncr work.

I do print 4/4 2 and 3 part ncr on the Versant 280 without issue. Xerox does recommend running a different job after running 5,000 clicks on ncr, but I don’t have feeding problems.

 

[joycerobinson]

For single color ncr, I would second the digital duplicator. I run 2 older Ricoh HQ9000 that I have never had a service contract on and have over 10 million prints on them. They are work horses that fit certain jobs perfectly. I don’t do as much ncr today as I did years ago but I run thousands of single color envelopes on them every week. Large ncr jobs I send out and even if I still had the offset presses, I would still send the longer runs out. For a job of 20,000 2 part 1/1 I save about $50 doing the work in-house and it’s just not worth it.

I can’t believe that the Riso is only $5,000, I paid more like $15,000 back in 2009 for the Ricoh HQ9000. If you stick to a digital duplicator that creates 600 dpi masters you’ll be good for ncr forms that have light areas of screens. Not as clean as the toner screens but acceptable for general ncr work.

I do print 4/4 2 and 3 part ncr on the Versant 280 without issue. Xerox does recommend running a different job after running 5,000 clicks on ncr, but I don’t have feeding problems.

Thanks so much for your input. I will look into a digital duplicator.

 

[joycerobinson]

Stay away from Riso. The quality isn't there and the ink is also too expensive for print for pay. Aftermarket inks can bring the cost down, but the quality is only adequate for transactional printing.

If not Riso, do you recommend another digital duplicator brand?

 

[joycerobinson]

For single color ncr, I would second the digital duplicator. I run 2 older Ricoh HQ9000 that I have never had a service contract on and have over 10 million prints on them. They are work horses that fit certain jobs perfectly. I don’t do as much ncr today as I did years ago but I run thousands of single color envelopes on them every week. Large ncr jobs I send out and even if I still had the offset presses, I would still send the longer runs out. For a job of 20,000 2 part 1/1 I save about $50 doing the work in-house and it’s just not worth it.

I can’t believe that the Riso is only $5,000, I paid more like $15,000 back in 2009 for the Ricoh HQ9000. If you stick to a digital duplicator that creates 600 dpi masters you’ll be good for ncr forms that have light areas of screens. Not as clean as the toner screens but acceptable for general ncr work.

I do print 4/4 2 and 3 part ncr on the Versant 280 without issue. Xerox does recommend running a different job after running 5,000 clicks on ncr, but I don’t have feeding problems.

Thanks so much for your input. I will look into a digital duplicator.

 

[joycerobinson]

We are a county in-plant and we run at least a pallet of NCR forms each week. The amount was causing issues on digital toner presses in the past, so we switched to digital duplicators. These use a liquid ink and a master film that is automatically made inside the printer. There is no heat, and an extremely short paper path, so the NCR coating doesn't cause any feeding issues. They are not high resolution, but this is not normally an issue for NCR forms which are meant to be transactional, not high quality marketing pieces. We had the Duplo line for about 5 years and they worked fine. When it came time to replace them, we went to bid about 2 years ago and switched to RISO SF9450's. The units have worked about the same as the Duplo's, but do have occasional double-sheet feeding issues. These digital duplicators are very low cost to purchase (I think they were under $5k US each), and the cost per impression is the same or less than what you'd pay on a monochrome digital toner press. The more prints you get out of a master, the lower the cost per sheet. We can usually run 10-15 reams before the film starts breaking down and we need to re-send. The digital duplicators come in 1 or 2 colors, and you can easily swap the color for a number of standard colors such as red, green, reflex blue, and black. They also run off a standard power outlet.

One thing that could be a drawback for someone who is used to running an offset press, is these units only hold 1-2 reams in the feeding tray. This is not an issue for us because we have two side-by-side and one operator can easily run both at the same time. We have our operators load one ream at a time in each because it's easier to quickly grab out the printed ream and press start on the next ream so it continues running while you're stacking up your NCR paper on the glue padding station.

RISO also carries a line of full-color inkjet units which I think is what @gregbatch is referring to. We have not had experience with those, but they appear to have the same feeding systems and paper path, along with no heat, so I'm sure they'd work well in that sense - but I'd imagine the cost per print is higher than the digital duplicator line.

EDIT: We sell our forms by the case (5,000 sheets) and it's quite common for our customers to order 2-3 cases of each form. So we're running 5,000-15,000 sheets per run. If customers want numbered NCR forms, we print those using a variable data software on our Konica Minolta 6136's, which are monochrome toner digital presses. Also, most of our forms are 1-sided. When we run a 2-sided form, they are typically shorter runs, and we usually run those on the Konica 6136's as well, but we could run them on the RISO's if we wanted to.

Thanks for your input. We have been looking into the inkjet printers, but had not heard of anyone running NCR on them. Will consider those vs digital duplicator.

 

[joycerobinson]

Epson's Workforce Enterprise inkjets go up to 100 impressions/minute are around $25,000 so that might be an option for a lower cost inkjet solution if you need variable data and CMYK. For single color, consider a duplicator.

I've run up to 15000 sheets of NCR brand 3 part on my V3100 without a whole lot of issues.

We are considering an Epson WFc-21000 - just hadn't heard if it runs NCR well, so thanks for the feedback.

 

[joycerobinson]

If you are wanting to go 100% digital, then inkjet is priceless. One recommended addition is the Kyocera 15000c. You are limited to uncoated papers, but it delivers very-near-offset quality printing. It is an ideal machine to replace offset, especially for all of the spot color work you typically do, plus carbonless, and standard window envelopes. In most cases you will be able to run at a fraction of the cost of toner based machines. Because you are paying for ink, heavy coverage jobs will likely come out ahead on the toner machine flat clicks, but we're talking coverage well beyond typical business printing anyway. Get it from Ricoh, not Kyocera. Everything but the inkjet engine is Ricoh, and they offer a service contract for a few tenths of a cent per click. Never struggle with "2 -color" Word files again. Just push the button. Are you charging to make that 2-color newsletter printable every month? You can probably print the color for the same price and still come out ahead. The price of the machine is in the range of toner based machines.

I have looked at the Kyocera 15000c. Monster of a machine, but also a monster price. Also have been looking at the Epson WFc-21000.

 

[gregbatch]

If not Riso, do you recommend another digital duplicator brand?

I was referring to their ComColor inkjet printer line. Their duplicators are good. Duplicators are sold by Riso, Duplo, and Ricoh.

 

[gregbatch]

I have looked at the Kyocera 15000c. Monster of a machine, but also a monster price. Also have been looking at the Epson WFc-21000.

Epson is a good machine. Ink was a bit expensive. Check out Duplicator Source. He may have a used one to get you started.

 

[joycerobinson]

Epson's Workforce Enterprise inkjets go up to 100 impressions/minute are around $25,000 so that might be an option for a lower cost inkjet solution if you need variable data and CMYK. For single color, consider a duplicator.

I've run up to 15000 sheets of NCR brand 3 part on my V3100 without a whole lot of issues.

My issue with the Epson WF-21000 is the high capacity tray looks like it only fits letter-size paper. I will check with rep to see if its adjustable. The standard trays will need to be re-filled often with NCR runs.

 

[jwheeler]

We are considering an Epson WFc-21000 - just hadn't heard if it runs NCR well, so thanks for the feedback.

If you go this route, definitely make sure you get the high capacity paper tray. Not only for loading more paper, but also to allow for a straight paper path. Those drawers under the engine will flip the paper upside down, and this will reverse the order of the NCR. I have no experience with Epson's multifunction line, but they are a quality brand. We have their wide format inkjet unit for dye sublimation. Just do your homework on the cost per print. For most digital laser printers, the service contract includes all toner and consumables for a flat cost per print, regardless of ink coverage. With most inkjet models, consumables are not included in the service plan. You may be able to give them some sample files and have them give you a report of how much ink was used which you can calculate against the cost per bottle of ink. You'll also want to investigate what other consumables you're responsible for. In most inkjet systems, you need to replace the print heads - which can be quite costly.