SuperStick Lamination on Xerox 700 Problem

[sidneykidney]

After printing 250 sheets of 250gsm Xerox Matt on our Xerox 700, we sent the sheets round to our finishing house for Gloss Lamination and were told by them that they were having problems with D&K SuperStick Lamination sticking to the paper and that they were also having this problem with another company who owns a Xerox. We've been using this same finishing house for a few years now with NO problems at all AND on the same stock. I even showed them file copies which they had laminated a month previously.
Is anyone else having this problem with this product the moment. I think it's a faulty batch but when the finishing house spoke to D&K, they said that there IS a problem with the lamination.

Digital Press Spec:
Machine: Xerox 700
Paper: Xerox 250gsm Matt
Image: Dark brown and bleeds off all edges
Lamination: D&K SuperStick

When I got some test sheets back, it was peeling off like cling film. There was hardly any tackiness.

We are based in London in the UK.

 

[kristianeyman]

have you looked into the super-lam film? maybe your laminator can look into another supplier if haveing problems with consistency?

 

[PAI]

Super Stik Lamination Problem

Super Stik Lamination Problem

Dear sidneykidney,

The problem is probably not the Super Stik film (sort of). The film is probably made to the correct specs. The problem is with the Xerox print. The ink system and fuser oil are not lamination friendly. Here at Protect-all we have made a film that was designed to work with Xerox prints. It is called Sure Grip. You might want to give it a try. You can contact Protect-all Inc. +1 262-724-3292.

Tony

 

[amsman]

Delamination off Xerox 700 Print

Delamination off Xerox 700 Print

Firstly the Xerox 700 uses EA Toner which has a Polymer Wax Dispersent in the Toner. It does not use Fuser Oil. ( To the best of my Knowleadge )

Xerox don't like to make it known??? but they do have available a special profile ( which we used on the Xerox 5000AP ) which cuts back the amount of Toner and wax ( or Fuser oil ) and gives the laminate a better chance of adhering to the print.

The toner when hot releases a gas which causes the delamiation problem. Let the prints cool and sit for about 6-12 hours ( The Longer the Better ) prior to Laminating and you should get a more reliable result.

Superstick is a D&K Product, expensive as hell but it should stick to a digital sheet with minimal problems. Just check with your supplier that it is a true Superstick Material as we did'nt have many dramas with this film at all ( 3000 SRA3 Boards per day ). It does sound like a possible faulty batch of film.

We went away from D&K Films (Price) and used a double glue Gloss and Matt Polyprop (OPP) Film, it ran through our Orbit 2000 Laminator slower ( 7.2mt a min and a temp of 110C ) but it proved to be reliable.

As a rule of thumb the darker the colour the more likley the film will lift.

Its a real problem, defeating the theory of quick turnaround letting the jobs sit to cool, but it does work.

Hope this helps...

 

[kristianeyman]

i have heard a lot about superstick film for digital printers. has anyone had experience using pro lam super-lam? from my sources it's not suppose to de-laminiate at ALL!!?? i have been using some cheap stuff available to me here in mexico, but the price is cheaper to buy in the us and bring it down. the only catch is hopefully it sticks! also when applying this to business cards and such do you find with the hydraylic clamp it increases the risk of delamination?

 

[printer in heart]

Firstly the Xerox 700 uses EA Toner which has a Polymer Wax Dispersent in the Toner. It does not use Fuser Oil. ( To the best of my Knowleadge )

Xerox don't like to make it known??? but they do have available a special profile ( which we used on the Xerox 5000AP ) which cuts back the amount of Toner and wax ( or Fuser oil ) and gives the laminate a better chance of adhering to the print.

The toner when hot releases a gas which causes the delamiation problem. Let the prints cool and sit for about 6-12 hours ( The Longer the Better ) prior to Laminating and you should get a more reliable result.

Superstick is a D&K Product, expensive as hell but it should stick to a digital sheet with minimal problems. Just check with your supplier that it is a true Superstick Material as we did'nt have many dramas with this film at all ( 3000 SRA3 Boards per day ). It does sound like a possible faulty batch of film.

We went away from D&K Films (Price) and used a double glue Gloss and Matt Polyprop (OPP) Film, it ran through our Orbit 2000 Laminator slower ( 7.2mt a min and a temp of 110C ) but it proved to be reliable.

As a rule of thumb the darker the colour the more likley the film will lift.

Its a real problem, defeating the theory of quick turnaround letting the jobs sit to cool, but it does work.

Hope this helps...

Hello, I have Xerox 1000 similar to Xerox 700, no Fuser Oil. Can you tell me which profile are you using on your Xerox 5000 which cuts down amount of Toner and Wax applied to sheets. Thanks

 

[apinch]

We run a lot of the same lam you are talking about on xerox machines, we find 2 issues that can result in de-lam. the fist is how quickly you try to laminate after printing, the second is how fast the laminator is running at what temperature. We run our laminator quite slow at the specified speed to make sure it is bonded correctly. If you never had this issue before i would look at how carefully your supplier is laminating your sheets. We have never had a product issue with the actual lamination. One thing we do since the xerox machines have such good hold out is print on a smooth un-coated sheet and then laminate with whatever finish you like. This ensures lam can grip into more of the fiber and not just coating.

 

[Massy]

Hi,

We have the same problem with the Zerox DC242 (which does not use fuser oil). We use D&K Superstick lamination films at higher temperatures(>100 deg. C) and slow speed. The result is the same as any other films. It will not stick to anything printed with dark solid background even after letting the sheets sit for few days.

The idea of reducing the amount of toner and wax applied to sheets may work but how can you achieve that?

This particular printer lays a very thick layer of toner on the sheets, the text is so raised that it looks more like Braille.

apinch is right, it does stick better to uncoated stock but not good enough.

 

[Josh]

For the 5000AP you can get a gloss reduction patch, it needs to be installed by the engineer though. You can select this on a job-by-job basis from the Image Quality options.

You can also adjust the level of Fuser Oil being applied to the sheets by "tricking" the machine and telling it you've loaded lighter paper than you're actually using. For example I think for 300gsm we'd use the 200(ish)gsm range (sorry can't remember the exact range off the top of my head) ...basically choosing a lighter paper weight will reduce the level of oil left on the sheets. HOWEVER it can result in other problems, such as gloss differential marks or the toner not applying to the sheets correctly. You may also need to adjust the transfer level (available via the custom paper profiles).

Basically you'll need to play around with it to get good results, all I can say is that we run heavy coverage onto non-xerox stocks and can laminate with superstick without any issues... that's after a fair bit of trial and error mind.

I'm quite surprised to hear there are issues with the EA (240/700/1000 machines) - I was under the impression the lamination problems were caused by the silicone fuser oil and the laminate adhesive not being able to bond to this... we used to have a 240 and I can't remember having any issues laminating output from this.

 

[kristianeyman]

could the problem be running the lam to high of a temp? i know that all sites recommend using 200-225 F, but if your running it above 300F would that be some of the problem? i only ask because i have a shipment of super-stick coming to me as well as a 240, so would like to alleviate this problem if possible!

 

[rsands]

the sheets laminated last month...are they roughly the same ink coverage? is the film peeling off white only areas on this current job?


Richard

 

[Beaker]

I find bumping the roller pressure up as high as possible, running at 105c, will solve most of our adhesion problems, but heavy toner coverage will always be a problem. (DC 5000)

 

[printer in heart]

After printing 250 sheets of 250gsm Xerox Matt on our Xerox 700, we sent the sheets round to our finishing house for Gloss Lamination and were told by them that they were having problems with D&K SuperStick Lamination sticking to the paper and that they were also having this problem with another company who owns a Xerox. We've been using this same finishing house for a few years now with NO problems at all AND on the same stock. I even showed them file copies which they had laminated a month previously.
Is anyone else having this problem with this product the moment. I think it's a faulty batch but when the finishing house spoke to D&K, they said that there IS a problem with the lamination.

Digital Press Spec:
Machine: Xerox 700
Paper: Xerox 250gsm Matt
Image: Dark brown and bleeds off all edges
Lamination: D&K SuperStick

When I got some test sheets back, it was peeling off like cling film. There was hardly any tackiness.

We are based in London in the UK.

Hello, I'm using Xerox 1000 model now and I run into the same problems with my lamination company. They use OPP film which is design for digital printing. When I got my lamination job back, I could easily remove film without damaging any printed ink. Paper I used was Elite Gloss 18x12 80lb cover. Image was also dark brown. Full solid accross. Before I used to print on Xerox 5252 and didn't have any problems. I hope it was defective film not the way printer prints. I tried a different image with the same film and it worked just fine. At this time I still don't know what had happened. Good luck to all of us

 

[Laminator Warehouse]

We have found that the EXB film works well for Xerox prints. It would be worth a shot.

Laminator Warehouse: Xtreme Bond (EXB) Laminating Film

 

[brettnw]

Hi,
Can you tell me if you had any success in solving this? I'm having a similar problem with the Superstick and Xerox prints. We've just changed print places. The one we used before had an Indigo and the new place has a Xerox. We had no problem with laminate not sticking before, but as some one mentioned in an earlier post, the laminate peels off the xerox prints like cling film! Frustrating stuff!

 

[PAI]

brettnw,

Call Protect-all and order a sample of Sure-Grip. In side by side tests with all the competitors films, Sure-Grip worked best on Xerox prints. 262-724-3292.

 

[JustinB]

I use the D & K superstick in my laminator and haven't had a problem yet. I run a roll of polyester gloss and vinyl matte laminate (yes, I mix types) when encapsulating and I have GREAT results with it. Prints come out flat and there is no waviness at all. I've got some work here that is over 2 years old and it's not coming apart. Most of the work I laminate comes out of my canon ipf8000s (with satin photo paper) and we usually give it a drying time of about 5 minutes before laminating. No problems at all!

I set the heat on the matte laminate to 200ºF and the gloss laminate to 185ºF and I haven't had any problems yet.

Hope this helps
Justin