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Tap water vs RO

madjock

Well-known member
Hello everyone and hopefully some light can be shed on this problem.
What it is, is the RO unit at our plant has ceased to function and we are now using straight tap water for the presses, I have questioned the wisdom of this but our pressroom supervisor insists that there is no difference between tap and RO water, saying that the RO unit pulls out the minerals found in tap water and then the fount solution puts them back.
Since I don't know enough about this subject I can't put up an argument, I can however tell you that we are having to run a lot of damp on the presses, up in the mid 50s and as high as 75% to prevent scumming, on top of this we have recently been plagued by small spots on the plates which are not image and can be removed using plate cleaner, this is the case on al 3 presses which are an 8 and a 12 col speedo and a 6 col CD, the plant is in Vancouver BC so our water is pretty soft.
Can anyone enlighten me, thanks in advance for all your responses.
 
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alot of water softener sales shops will test your water for softness free. just because your water is soft does not mean it is good for printing. calcium used in softeners is bad for printing. the ro then pulled out your calcium/ what ever other softener you had. Our city is all ro water, but they dump 10% filtered well water back it so that it is not so soft that it will pull the iron watermains apart. spend $10 on some distilled water from the grocery once and see if that fixes the issue.
 
we use tap water in our presses. we've never had issues.
are your operators using the same chemestry settings (percentages or oz/gal) as with the ro water? if so, i suggest they play with percentages of chemicals they are using.
 
RO vs. Tap Water

RO vs. Tap Water

First of all there is a difference betwee RO and tap water. RO water should have a conductivity of zero or at least a number you can identify with. You need to know the conductivity of your water before you can determine the conductivity you need to run at.
If conductivity is Zero and you want to run between 1,800 & 2,000 you need to know the number you are starting at in your tap water or RO water..
There are web sites out there such as Prisco.com and many others, but yes your supervisor is wrong if he truly told you there is no difference.
The fact that you are having spots that need removed bothers me, if this problem did not exsist before going to tap water.

Hello everyone and hopefully some light can be shed on this problem.
What it is, is the RO unit at our plant has ceased to function and we are now using straight tap water for the presses, I have questioned the wisdom of this but our pressroom supervisor insists that there is no difference between tap and RO water, saying that the RO unit pulls out the minerals found in tap water and then the fount solution puts them back.
Since I don't know enough about this subject I can't put up an argument, I can however tell you that we are having to run a lot of damp on the presses, up in the mid 50s and as high as 75% to prevent scumming, on top of this we have recently been plagued by small spots on the plates which are not image and can be removed using plate cleaner, this is the case on al 3 presses which are an 8 and a 12 col speedo and a 6 col CD, the plant is in Vancouver BC so our water is pretty soft.
Can anyone enlighten me, thanks in advance for all your responses.
 
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What kind of plates are you using? Spots from silver halide plates could mean you need to clean your processor out. Use the distilled water as mantioned above on one press to see if there is a change. I think tap water is better because of the base conductance I feel the water buffers better with fountain solution better then distilled or RO however you could have real nasty water. If you are in the sticks and you have well water that has a lot of copper or iron in it you should get the RO system fixed. If you are using city water that is treated you should not have as big a problem. Can you post PH and conductance numbers? Are you alcohol free?
 
We run alcohol, and the last time anyone measured the ph it was 5.4, the CP2000 reads the conductivity around the 1,800 to 2,000, if it goes out of tolerance we get a fault warning.
I think we use fuji plates and the plate setter is very well maintained, Heidelberg have been in and it has been determined that the spots are not a pre-press problem.
Thanks for all the input thus far, it is much appreciated.
 
5.4 sounds like you are leaning to the Alkline side, 4.5 to 5.0 would be better but with the buffered acids of today it can be hard to evaluate. Conductivity should be your main indicator.

Do you mantain a constant Alcohol level or do crews add it as they feel needed. This can cause a decrease in your acid level if this is happening.

Conductivity numbers can also be deceiving unless you know what conductivity should be yeiled in the mix, numbers could differ from one product to another.
 
We use deionised water ( RO I asume) simply because our water supply was never consistant , since using the RO water we have lower water settings and its much more consistant..
 
Tap water vs. RO information

Tap water vs. RO information

RO or Reverse Osmosis water treatment removes a percentage (typically 90+%) of the dissolved solids (all minerals, metals, etc.) in the water therefore it will reduce the conductivity of the tapwater going into the system 90+%. Fountain solution does not "put them back in." Fountain solution concentrates are typically acid salts (citric acid or some other mild acid) surfactants, wetting agents, buffers and gum. They never put calcium or other hardness minerals in fountain solution since doing this would work against the purpose of the acid salts. The dissolved solids in tap water varies with the source water and is effected by season, rainfall amounts, source (surface vs. well), blending of sources, demand, etc. These variables will cause your fountain concentrate components to vary. Buffers are put in the fountain concentrate to deal with the calcium and alkalinity contamination from the paper your printing on. As the paper contamination builds, the pH will rise and once it reaches 5.2 or above the gum will be negatively affected. A pH less than 7 is acidic, 7 is neutral and greater than 7 is alkaline. Municipal tap water cannot have a pH of 5.4, it would be too acidic and would cause problems with copper pipe, etc. More than likely you are using a pH meter that has been used for fountain solution and the interface is contaminated with residual acid salts throwing off your reading. Without a doubt and it is well proven, using process water to make up your fountain solution is going to help you control your printing process. Yes you can print without it, thousands of printers do, you will chase more problems that may be water related or not. Process control is key to controlling your printing operation and business. It is a fact that you will have to adjust your mix ratio when going between RO water and tap water due to the different chemical makeup. I would recommend getting your RO fixed and getting back in control. It is worth the investment.
 
Only tap water

Only tap water

After hearing so much expertise on fountain chemistry, it is interesting to see other approaches that have the potential of leading to other conclusions.

In an article today, it was reported that at Graph Expo, Shinohara printed for four days at the show, without fountain solution. They used only tap water.

WhatTheyThink - Graph Expo News 2008 - SHINOHARA Goes Pure Green At Graph Expo

I find this interesting since I tend to think there has been a lot of pseudo-science in the chemistry area of printing. It is hard to tell what is really true and what isn't.

One of the interesting by products of my interest in my Ink Transfer Blade (ITB) technology, which makes the ink feed independent of water feed and therefore eliminates ink water balancing required by the operator, is the possibility to apply fountain solution in different ways and with different chemistries. Going to just tap water or something almost as simple becomes an area that finally could be investigated.
 
Obviously we add a water hardner to the RO to bring the conductivity to were it should be.

Thats interesting about the Shinohara just printing with water... no alcohol either??
Maybee they have finally altered the dampening system..
I still feel that shinohara would benifit, greatly if they just improved the basic things so the machine as standard worked as good as heid/Komori/ryobi......
Also add some adjustability to the blanket/roller wash, so green washes could be implemented...
No good having a machine that says it can do a lot of things but actualy doesn't do many of them all that good.
 
Thats interesting about the Shinohara just printing with water... no alcohol either??
Maybee they have finally altered the dampening system..



I'm just curious, What desensitises the plate? or in my limited experience, if I try this the paper attacks my plate & I get serious background issues. When I stop the plate shows the sheets size/shape etched into the plate. But the ink does dry more quickly.
 
Running H2o !!!!!

Running H2o !!!!!

Hi everyone, don't be "Bamboozled" by Shinohara, any Litho plate will run with "Water" until the "Desensitizing Film" is abraded away, this layer is only 1 molecule in thickness.

A good fountain solution concentrate should, therefore, impart to the diluted damping solution all the properties and characteristics necessary to "Consistently maintain and enhance the inherent Hydrophilic nature of the Aluminium plate"

The problems associated with "running just water" are numerous, e.g. - Plate Sensitivity also Anodic attack.

In the UK we ran "Deep-etch" plates with just H2o but only on short print runs, but that's going back along time!!

Regards, Alois
 
Only tap water???

Only tap water???

I saw the contraption that Shinohara was using at Graph Expo. It was a product from a Japanese manufacturer that claimed that you can use only tap water, run it through their equipment and out comes dampening solution that works. If that system works, did it?? then a whole lot of printing chemical manufacturers are out of business overnight and maybe they can turn lead into gold too!! I wish that I owned that patent so I can retire tomorrow. Lets have some comparative tests done here in the USA and get the results to share with the forum.
 
Reverse Osmosis filtration ostensibly provides you with pure water. This gives you control over the components you add to achieve your desired conductance range and PH. Your tap water, on the other hand provides you with ingredients outside your control. Personally I prefer knowing what it is that I put into my fountain solution.

As stated by others earlier in this thread, and once again by me. RO water, being devoid of particulates, will have a low conductance as compared to non-filtered water.

It is up to you now to evaluate how you achieve the optimal conductance and PH.

The Etch component (Acid) of the fountain solution is to keep the plate from plugging up. The Etch keeps you printing sharp.

When we first switched to RO water, we needed to add a lot of Etch in order to reach a reasonable conductance. However, at this level of added etch our PH had dropped below 4.0. This meant that we needed to add a buffer. For this we simply added Baking Soda (an alkaline) to increase the PH and maintain our target conductance.

This only left us with Gum Arabic to work out. With a sufficient amount of Gum Arabic you should be able to let a press set idle for a 2 hour lunch break and upon returning, not have to be concerned with oxidation of the plates.

This resulted in a complicated formula that all subsequent pressmen resisted and ultimately accepted.

Control your PH, Conductance and Gum Arabic.
 
After hearing so much expertise on fountain chemistry, it is interesting to see other approaches that have the potential of leading to other conclusions.

In an article today, it was reported that at Graph Expo, Shinohara printed for four days at the show, without fountain solution. They used only tap water.

WhatTheyThink - Graph Expo News 2008 - SHINOHARA Goes Pure Green At Graph Expo

I find this interesting since I tend to think there has been a lot of pseudo-science in the chemistry area of printing. It is hard to tell what is really true and what isn't.

One of the interesting by products of my interest in my Ink Transfer Blade (ITB) technology, which makes the ink feed independent of water feed and therefore eliminates ink water balancing required by the operator, is the possibility to apply fountain solution in different ways and with different chemistries. Going to just tap water or something almost as simple becomes an area that finally could be investigated.


Questions for you.
If I increase the press speed, thereby shortening the press interval, thereby decreasing the tack of the first down ink with respect to the second down ink, thereby decreasing the trapping of the second down ink by the first down ink. How will your proposed, more consistent ink film thickness at the uppermost inking rollers affect the ink film transfer between the second down ink film between the blanket and the first down ink film already applied to the sheet?

Being that your Patent indicates modifications at the uppermost range of rollers, how can that influence ink emulsification, to a greater degree than any other press?

How is it that you pronounce that having control of, ink stroke, ink keys and dampening rate do not constitute independent control?

Attached is your patent PDF.
 
Questions for you.
If I increase the press speed, thereby shortening the press interval, thereby decreasing the tack of the first down ink with respect to the second down ink, thereby decreasing the trapping of the second down ink by the first down ink. How will your proposed, more consistent ink film thickness at the uppermost inking rollers affect the ink film transfer between the second down ink film between the blanket and the first down ink film already applied to the sheet?

Being that your Patent indicates modifications at the uppermost range of rollers, how can that influence ink emulsification, to a greater degree than any other press?

How is it that you pronounce that having control of, ink stroke, ink keys and dampening rate do not constitute independent control?

Attached is your patent PDF.


Otherthoughts,

Good questions and I will try to answer them as well as I can.

I will start with the last question about non independent control first before addressing the others.

The lack of independence is due to the inconsistent ink transfer by the ductor roller. This is also true for continuous metering roller ductors as well. If we look at the ink feed system, there is the gap between the ink key and ink fountain roller that meters ink onto the ink fountain roller surface. As the ink goes around, the intermittent ductor roller comes into contact with the ink fountain roller and picks up ink. The assumption might be that while the ductor is in contact with the ink fountain roller, the ink film between these two rollers split consistently and then transfers ink to the roller train as the ductor moves to those high speed rollers.

This is the simple explanation but it does not explain what really happens. It implies that the ink transfer is in only one direction when in fact it is transfering ink in both directions at the same time. This can be shown when the press has backtrapping problems. The ink that was backtrapping will go all the way up the roller train and transfer across to the ink fountain. The fact that backtrapped ink will find its way into the ink fountain is proof of the two direction ink transfer conditions.

Also before the ink film splits, there is some mixing of the two ink films together in the nip. It is not a simple splitting of ink films. This means that in normal running conditions, emusified ink will be transfered to the ink fountain as part of this two way transfer condition. Ink is always emuslified. That is normal.

What the press rollers get is the net ink transfer amount, which is the difference between the amount of ink going from the ink fountain to the press minus the ink from the roller train going back to the ink fountain. It is the net transfer of ink that eventually affects the printed density.

The net ink transfer amount will be affected by the amount of water in the ink on the roller train, the temperature of the ink and the speed of the press. This explanation should be enough to show how the ink feed is not independent of other variables and that there is no mechanical device that can be set on even modern offset presses that is directly related to the ink feed rate.

Next thing I will discuss is the concept of Conservation of Mass. This is not a theory but is considered a Law. If one has an explanation of a process and it violates the C of M law, then one can be sure the explanation is in error.

Now if we take a simple mind experiment, the importance of the C of M law can be seen as it relates to density control on offset presses.

Let's say we are printing a 20% solid across the sheet or web. It prints at a consistent density of say 1.3. The press is running along and everything is stable. A steady state conditions exists.

At a steady state condition, the amount of ink stored on the rollers is constant and the amount of ink printed on the paper must equal the amount of ink being fed into the roller train. This agrees with C of M. The ink being the Mass in this example.

In a conventional press, one could increase the water and normally this will result in a decrease in print density. Let's say this is done and the press eventually stabalizes at a new steady state condition and the density is now 1.2.

Most people will say that there is less ink on the print. If this is true and there is less ink being printed, then based on C of M, there has to be less ink going into the press. This change of ink feed can be explained by the description of the transfer conditions of the ductor above.

For a second mind experiment, we change the inconsistent ductor transfer method to a positive ink transfer method which is not affected by water, temperture or press speed.

We start at the original steady state conditions printing a density of 1.3. Now we increase the water setting and wait. Since the original ink feed rate is not affected by the change in water, the ink must come out in the print at the same rate. So what is printed is the same amount of ink but with a bit more water in it. The print density will be 1.3 as it was before the addition of water. And this is indeed what it shows in tests.

The Ink Transfer Blade invention.

The purpose of the ITB is NOT to provide consistent ink films but to transfer consistent ink volumes (mass). The ink films on the roller train will change but that is not what is important. It is the ink feed rate that is important and this fact makes the problem of density control much easier. The C of M approach makes the control of the problem independent of all the complicated actions taking place in the roller train.

Another mind experiment. This will be for the positive ink transfer conditions. Let's say that all the nips on the roller train were splitting the ink films 50%-50%. We are at steady state and printing a solid density of 1.3 .

Then magically, we change all the split ratios to 60%- 40%. We have disturbed the equilibrium conditions and the pres will now have to go through a transient to reestablish steady state conditons.

So at the moment we make the change, 40% of the ink film is printed to the paper instead of 50%. This results in an immediate drop in density. So less ink is going out of the system but at the same time, the ink going into the system has not changed. This results in a transient where the ink stored on the rollers increases by increasing ink film thicknesses. This transient continues until the ink film at the nip between the paper and blanket reaches a point where the new amount of ink at the 40% split value equals the old amount of ink at the 50% split value. The new steady state condition exists after the density of the print recovers to 1.3 due to the fact that finally the ink going out is equal to the ink going in.

Now this is a drastic change but small variations will be happening all the time but they are also correcting themselves due to the C of M principle.

Hopefully you will also notice that the amount of water is not important with respect to ink printed. The consistency of printed density is not related to emulsification. The use of the term emusification of ink is a catch phrase to cover the lack of understanding of what is actually happening in the press.

Your first questions is a bit more complicated since it is dealing with wet trapping. So again let's look at a mind experiment.

First the more simple one. First down ink is the 20% solid bar across the sheet. The second down ink is the same 20% printed right on top of the first. In this case, as long as there is no backtrapping, the ink film on the second down ink will be consistent and independent of press speed with a positive ink transfer condition.

The second experiment is more complicated. Same 20% bar for the first down but this time the second 20% bar is not directly over the first. Let's say 10% overprinting and 10% directly on the paper. With the positive ink transfer condition, we know that the same amount of ink will print to the paper, but now there is the issue of where it goes.

If there is a drop in the wet trapping of the second down ink onto the first down ink in the 10% overprint area as the press speed increases, this will mean that some of the constant fed ink will have to go to the 10% region where the second down ink prints directly onto the paper. This is a possibility. But now we may have some tools to correct this. If we increase the water setting slightly for the second down ink, this may increase the wet trapping performance and resulting in more ink printing in the over print area and then less in the direct to paper area, restoring the original print conditions.

I am not saying that this would be a problem but there is more of a chance of improving any possible condition with a system that corrects the first order problem of consistent and independent ink feed than one would expect with what exists now.

You were discussing tack in the context of time and sequence. Tack on press is much different than tack measured in the lab. Water in the ink greatly reduces tack. You can see this by running some ink on a tackometer. It will give you a value but add a few drops of water and the tack drops like a rock. On press as long as there is no back trapping problem, the issue about tack has little to do with the ultimate solution to the density control problem. By the way, viscosity is also not an issue. Controlling volume (mass) of ink into the ink train is.

I hope this has answered your questions and given you something to think about.
 
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Otherthoughts,
...
The second experiment is more complicated. Same 20% bar for the first down but this time the second 20% bar is not directly over the first. Let's say 10% overprinting and 10% directly on the paper. With the positive ink transfer condition, we know that the same amount of ink will print to the paper, but now there is the issue of where it goes.

If there is a drop in the wet trapping of the second down ink onto the first down ink in the 10% overprint area as the press speed increases, this will mean that some of the constant fed ink will have to go to the 10% region where the second down ink prints directly onto the paper. This is a possibility. But now we may have some tools to correct this. If we increase the water setting slightly for the second down ink, this may increase the wet trapping performance and resulting in more ink printing in the over print area and then less in the direct to paper area, restoring the original print conditions.
...

Hi Erik,

"Let's say 10% overprinting and 10% directly on the paper" is an unfortunate choice of words. I think you meant to say that the second down ink color bar is positioned on the plate such that only half of it overlaps the the bar of the first down ink on the paper. There is no 10% tint screen anywhere on the plate if I understood the description of the experiment correctly.

But choice of words is not the mayor problem here. In the second paragraph quoted here, you describe controlling the print density on that second unit by manipulating the water feed. Doesn't this contradict your claim that with the ITB the printed density is made independent of the water feed?

Please explain the apparent contradiction.

Or is it the case that the benefits of the ITB are less in situations involving wet trapping?

Regards,

Al
 
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Hi Erik,

"Let's say 10% overprinting and 10% directly on the paper" is an unfortunate choice of words. I think you meant to say that the second down ink color bar is positioned on the plate such that only half of it overlaps the the bar of the first down ink on the paper. There is no 10% tint screen anywhere on the plate if I understood the description of the experiment correctly.

But choice of words is not the mayor problem here. In the second paragraph quoted here, you describe controlling the print density on that second unit by manipulating the water feed. Doesn't this contradict your claim that with the ITB the printed density is made independent of the water feed?

Please explain the apparent contradiction.

Or is it the case that the benefits of the ITB are less in situations involving wet trapping?

Regards,

Al

Al,

I guess the use of 10% was misleading and it certainly did not mean a tint. As you described, it is half of the 20% bar of the second down print is over printing the first down print and the remaining half is printing directly on the paper.

It does sound like a contradiction in a way but I was answering a hypothetical question. I do not have any data on how much the wet trapping would change when a press speeds up. I have not seen any evidence that it would happen or does now to the point that it is a printing issue. Also profiles tend to be made at the production speeds and not at some speed that is significantly different. Certainly these kinds of phenomena could be tested much easier with a positive ink feed than with the existing ink feed conditions because one would have control of the ink variable.

The basic claim is that the ink feed is independent of changes in water and that basically means that density will be consistent. Density is not totally related to the amount of ink in the ink film. The smoothness of the ink film will affect density too. And density is also related to the ink and paper combination. The same ink printed with the same ink film on a different paper can have surprisingly different density values.

In general the use of the ITB would show that the printing of density is much more consistent and very independent of changes in water, etc. If one wanted to split hairs on very small issues to avoid thinking in new directions, well I would say that has been done for over fifty years and the result is that little progress has been made in understanding the fundamental rules of the process. For practical printing purposes, the ITB would result in consistent print density on average and leads to the potential of pre-settable and predictable print density, both of which you can't get with the existing conditions.

If one wanted to hair split comments one could say that one can not measure density because the instrument measures reflectance and calculates density. For practical reasons, we tend to say that the density was measured.

I would suggest that as problems in the process are found, they should be eliminated and then one can see where one can go from there.
 
Check the RO water w/out chemical ph=7, conductivity 30-40 is ideal but not lower than 20
with checmicals ph around 5.1-5.2, conductivity = 1800-1880

check your supplier what is the dilution percentage of their fountain
 

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