The New Excuse

[gordo]

 

[Possumgal]

Besides, we already used those other excuses in previous years for not giving out raises.

 

[kansasquaker]

If the only thing keeping your business afloat is the margin gained by foreign governments' currency manipulation, anti-competitive practices and lack of any EHS standards, you probably aren't long for this world anyway.

Also, for everybody here who gives a fig about the environment health or safety, why is it ok to achieve cost reductions by moving production to countries with more lax environmental standards? How much more would foreign newsprint cost if they had to pay their workers a decent wage and provide for their healthcare? Why is it ok to destroy the environment and have unsafe working conditions where brown and black people live, but not where white people live? (seriously, take a look at the map). You shouldn't argue for $15 per hour for workers in the US, when you can only achieve such prosperity by outsourcing your EHS problems to China, Mexico, India, et al.

But yeah, that's probably all Trump's fault.

 

[gordo]

If the only thing keeping your business afloat is the margin gained by foreign governments' currency manipulation, anti-competitive practices and lack of any EHS standards, you probably aren't long for this world anyway.

Also, for everybody here who gives a fig about the environment health or safety, why is it ok to achieve cost reductions by moving production to countries with more lax environmental standards? How much more would foreign newsprint cost if they had to pay their workers a decent wage and provide for their healthcare? Why is it ok to destroy the environment and have unsafe working conditions where brown and black people live, but not where white people live? (seriously, take a look at the map). You shouldn't argue for $15 per hour for workers in the US, when you can only achieve such prosperity by outsourcing your EHS problems to China, Mexico, India, et al.

But yeah, that's probably all Trump's fault.

As far as newsprint is concerned, the issue is with tariffs applied to Canadian producers - which don't really fit your foreign government and source origins criteria (e.g. https://globalnews.ca/news/4140893/us-newspapers-tariffs-canadian-newsprint/)

 

[fiatlux]

@kansasquaker

Using your criteria, what has Trump done for America to:

Tighten environmental standards?

To require employers to pay their workers a decent wage?

To provide workers healthcare?

To ensure safe working conditions?

 

[kansasquaker]

As far as newsprint is concerned, the issue is with tariffs applied to Canadian producers - which don't really fit your foreign government and source origins criteria (e.g. https://globalnews.ca/news/4140893/us-newspapers-tariffs-canadian-newsprint/)

That's 100% true. But since trade was the topic, I wasn't going to pass up the opportunity to talk about the underlying issues. The particular little barbs going back and fourth now are destructive for some and beneficials for others. (I have no doubt those closest to power access the globe benefit the most in these spats). Really they're no different than any other interventionist government policy - they create turmoil until the new equilibrium is reached. They are the symptoms, not the problem. The underlying tension will never go away as long as wealthy countries are shifting production to poorer countries to avoid costly laws and regulations.

 

[kansasquaker]

@kansasquaker

Using your criteria, what has Trump done for America to:

Tighten environmental standards?

To require employers to pay their workers a decent wage?

To provide workers healthcare?

To ensure safe working conditions?

America already has some of the most strict and costly standards on the planet. That's why it's so difficult to manufacture anything here. Any further increase in costs can only hurt the American worker and make them less competitive vs global labor.

My question still stands. Why are we willing to tolerate these practices in Africa and Asia but not in America, Canada and Europe? If we really believe workers are entitled to certain protections, why have we intentionally shifted manufacturing to places which do not provide them?

 

[fiatlux]

America already has some of the most strict and costly standards on the planet. That's why it's so difficult to manufacture anything here. Any further increase in costs can only hurt the American worker and make them less competitive vs global labor.

My question still stands. Why are we willing to tolerate these practices in Africa and Asia but not in America, Canada and Europe? If we really believe workers are entitled to certain protections, why have we intentionally shifted manufacturing to places which do not provide them?

You didn't answer those specific questions. Perhaps it's because the Trump administration has been dismantling environmental protections and healthcare? "If you can't beat 'em join 'em?"

 

[kansasquaker]

You didn't answer those specific questions. Perhaps it's because the Trump administration has been dismantling environmental protections and healthcare? "If you can't beat 'em join 'em?"

I apologize, I thought my answer was pretty clear. Trump hasn't done anything to increase those protections because American workers don't need additional protections. They already have some of the best on the planet. Your turn.

 

[gordo]

The underlying tension will never go away as long as wealthy countries are shifting production to poorer countries to avoid costly laws and regulations.

By shifting production to poorer countries to avoid costly laws and regulations the companies either increase their profit margins and/or better meet their customer desire for lower cost goods. Isn't that the goal of any company? Don't the citizens of wealthy countries encourage those companies whenever they make a purchase decision? Doesn't offshoring production create jobs in those countries which in turn helps raise their standard of living?

 

[MailGuru]

My question still stands. Why are we willing to tolerate these practices in Africa and Asia but not in America, Canada and Europe? If we really believe workers are entitled to certain protections, why have we intentionally shifted manufacturing to places which do not provide them?

I'll chime in here: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[kansasquaker]

By shifting production to poorer countries to avoid costly laws and regulations the companies either increase their profit margins and/or better meet their customer desire for lower cost goods. Isn't that the goal of any company? Don't the citizens of wealthy countries encourage those companies whenever they make a purchase decision? Doesn't offshoring production create jobs in those countries which in turn helps raise their standard of living?

The answers to your questions are Yes, Yes and Yes. Companies can make a lot of money, and save consumers vastly larger sums in aggregate, by shifting production to countries with fewer regulations. People like profits and cheap goods.

But people also say they like a clean environment (whatever that may mean to you), good working conditions etc. Many say these are human rights. There's a good case to be made that excess carbon in the atmosphere will result in enormous losses in lives, property and literally land. And of course there's a huge flow of capital in one direction too. Competitive advantage through legislation is not a sustainable system. When things get tough, other countries will attempt to legislate away your advantage.

 

[claude72]

... American workers don't need additional protections. They already have some of the best on the planet.

Are you kidding, or are you blind???

Come work in France, you'll see what is REAL worker protection, healthcare, unemployment protection and retirement...

... and you'll realize that in term of worker protection the USA are much more close to the third-world than to France and some other country in Europe.

 

[gordo]

Are you kidding, or are you blind???

Come work in France, you'll see what is REAL worker protection, healthcare, unemployment protection and retirement...

... and you'll realize that in term of worker protection the USA are much more close to the third-world than to France and some other country in Europe.

Interestingly, in ranking the best and worst countries for workers, the US scores a 4 which puts the it on par with countries like Iraq, Iran, and Sierra Leone

https://www.fastcompany.com/3031015/the-best-and-worst-countries-for-workers

 

[arossetti]

Are you kidding, or are you blind???

Come work in France, you'll see what is REAL worker protection, healthcare, unemployment protection and retirement...

... and you'll realize that in term of worker protection the USA are much more close to the third-world than to France and some other country in Europe.

Might be a reason why the state of California has a higher GDP than all of France.

 

[claude72]

Might be a reason why the state of California has a higher GDP than all of France.

Only since last year... and surely because we didn't yet legalize marijuana, which is a HUGE (and new) source of profit for California!

 

[kansasquaker]

Are you kidding, or are you blind???

Come work in France, you'll see what is REAL worker protection, healthcare, unemployment protection and retirement...

... and you'll realize that in term of worker protection the USA are much more close to the third-world than to France and some other country in Europe.

I'll pass on all that protection, thanks just the same tho. It costs WAY too much and I can provide better for myself.

 

[claude72]

... and I can provide better for myself.

Yeees... because today you can afford, and you'll have your healthcare as long as you will afford, or as long as you will have your job.
But what happens to you and your healthcare if you are fired tomorrow (if you are an employe) or if your company is bankrupted tomorrow? Do you keep your healthcare?

In France, is not something you pay yourself or something provided by your boss, but it's given by the State to everybody: so, whatever happens to you, you've got it, even if you are unemployed.
Healthcare is not based on individuallity (like in the US), but it's based on solidarity... of course some selfish people who do not see "further than the tip of their nose" (litteral translation of a french expression, but I hope you can see the point) claim that they do not want to pay for all the other people... forgetting that surely at one moment of their life these other people will pay for them.

Of course, it costs a little bit more... but it is also much more efficient and covers everybody.

(some years ago, poor people and unemployed people receiving social welfare even had a better healthcare than working people!)


We can also debate about the retirement system: do you know that the US retirement system is actually ruining all the european economy?

 

[kansasquaker]

But what happens to you and your healthcare if you are fired tomorrow (if you are an employe) or if your company is bankrupted tomorrow? Do you keep your healthcare?

It's really just a question of who you believe is ultimately responsible for the wellbeing of an individual - is it the individual himself or the society of which he is a part? I prefer the former answer, you're welcome to prefer the latter. I find the attendant moral obligations of the latter answer to be unacceptable.

 

[claude72]

It's really just a question of who you believe is ultimately responsible for the wellbeing of an individual - is it the individual himself or the society of which he is a part?

I completely agree with you.

And I prefer the latter answer: I fell like being a part of the (french) society, and I take the advantages offered by the society, while accepting the attendant moral obligations, also knowing that this society will never give up on me and will protect me as much as possible.

When I was young and in (quite) good health, the "free" healthcare of the french society was an advantage that I already much apreciated. Today I have a cancer (a lymphoma) and I am treated with chemotherapy: believe me, I deeply appreciate the french healthcare system (called "Sécurité Sociale") as I am treated the best possible way and I have nothing to pay.


I can keep on working: I have a part time job, only 4 hours per day, that is manageable, despite I am a little bit slow in my job because of the fatigue given by the chemo, but I can work, so I have no problem with my boss. But even if I couldn't cope with my job, my boss cannot lay me off because I'm sick: that's also a part of the workers protections provided by the french society, the french laws forbid a boss to lay somebody off as simply as saying him/her the famous american "You are fired".
(hope you understand my english...???)

And I imagine what would be my situation in a country like USA: my healthcare is provided by my employer, I'm too sick to work as much as normal (frankly, at the end of my small 4 hours day I am often exhausted, and I couldn't work a whole normal day), so the boss lays me off, I have no more healthcare and not enough money to buy medecines... An untreated lymphoma is 100% lethal: I'm dead.