To chill or not to chill...

[longlimb]

We are in the marketing for a new-to-us press. Looking at a 4 color probably around a 20" x 29". Currently have a 28" mitsi with the chilled rollers and dryer system and a coater tower.

So I've found a couple discussions on chilled rollers but I can't help but walk still scratching my head.

Do we need chilled rollers?

Do we need a dryer system?

We are in the south so it feels like the surface of the sun 6 months out of the year. But we do have a pretty decent AC system in the shop. Spoil the pressman a bit if you ask me. But anyway, we don't typically run faster than 10-11K/hr.

A coworker came from another shop in town that have a 4/c without chilled rollers and would constantly hear the pressman bitching around mid-day after running all morning and apparently heating up the inks to the point of control issues. But this coworker is a bindery guy so may not know the whole story.

So what does everyone think? What about my fellow southern printers? You running a press with chilled rollers and/or a dryer system?

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

I guess the question is does your current set up (Mits with Chillers,coater and dryer) add value to your print shop and customers. If you see no benefit currently to having these options then save yourself the money which will be quite substantial. On the other hand you wont have much luck adding these options later if you need them. Remember it's not just heat alone that dries the sheet. I would never buy just a 4 colour press, If you guys can negotiate with the press manufacturer in this current financial climate you could probably get a 5 colour or even a 6 colour. Just my opinion Good luck

 

[turbotom1052]

the notion of "spoiling the pressman" with air conditioning is probably a mentality that has a greater impact on your final product than anything you would buy or not buy for your equipment. How bout you and your office staff do without the air conditioning, seeing how your spending most of your day on your duff, in front of a phone and a computer. The money you save on that should be enough to give your pressroom staff a long overdue raise. Now that I've gotten that out of the way I will say that the infrared dryer is an absolute must unless your willing to schedule all of your work in such a way as to allow for ample drying. As far as roller chillers I would say that if your a shop thats not too concerned about consistent color, dry ups, and giving your staff every opportunity to deliver the best product possible, in the most productive environment, then save the coin and do without. My guess is that you will opt out of spending the money and spend the savings on a fleet of new company cars for you and your family.

 

[longlimb]

Oh wow turbotom. Someone sounds bitter. And to clarify, when I said spoil the pressmen, I meant by keep the AC down around 75/76. I wasn't meaning turn the AC off! I just meant not have it quite so low.

I am a production guy, not owner. I don't have a company car. Our pressman actually just received raises as a matter of fact. So chill out (pun intended) and quit projecting.

My failed attempt to inject a little humor really got you going and I apologize for that. I'm on the pressmen's side here. Hence why I'm inquiring about adding features that will help them. Our current large press has these features but I am having a hell of a time finding a press with chilled rollers and a dryer system. Remember, we are looking for a used press. We can't afford a new one. I spoke to each one of them and most used to run presses at other shops and didn't have chilled rollers and tell me they ran fine. But I'm still stuck on wanting to have it but trying to get a little support here as to why they are necessary so I can justify the added expense with the owner.

 

[turbotom1052]

Oh wow turbotom. Someone sounds bitter. And to clarify, when I said spoil the pressmen, I meant by keep the AC down around 75/76. I wasn't meaning turn the AC off! I just meant not have it quite so low.

I am a production guy, not owner. I don't have a company car. Our pressman actually just received raises as a matter of fact. So chill out (pun intended) and quit projecting.

My failed attempt to inject a little humor really got you going and I apologize for that. I'm on the pressmen's side here. Hence why I'm inquiring about adding features that will help them. Our current large press has these features but I am having a hell of a time finding a press with chilled rollers and a dryer system. Remember, we are looking for a used press. We can't afford a new one. I spoke to each one of them and most used to run presses at other shops and didn't have chilled rollers and tell me they ran fine. But I'm still stuck on wanting to have it but trying to get a little support here as to why they are necessary so I can justify the added expense with the owner.

the fact that I've already gotten a like on my post would indicate to me that theres at least one person out there that shares my feelings, and are not afraid to admit it. After over 35 years of running presses I can assure you that there are many more. You rarely hear about it in the office because guys want to keep their jobs ,so that they can feed their families, but know that my feelings are shared by many. Its funny how employees are subject to regular performance reviews,. but yet employers never stand humbly before their employees to be told how they are doing as employers. For the life of me I've never been able to figure out what it is about an employer\employee relationship that should have the employer with an inherent advantage. As far as I'm concerned both parties bring an equal stake to the table!!! So in response to your statement about being bitter I will say that Ive been burned a few times. Not every time but enough times to call it a prevailing attitude in the industry. And I also know that Im not alone in feeling this way. The saddest part about all this is that its getting worse rather than better. This change for the worse is what has me grateful to be retired. Heaven help the new blood with a lifetime ahead of them if things continue as they are.

 

[AP90]

the fact that I've already gotten a like on my post would indicate to me that theres at least one person out there that shares my feelings, and are not afraid to admit it. After over 35 years of running presses I can assure you that there are many more. You rarely hear about it in the office because guys want to keep their jobs ,so that they can feed their families, but know that my feelings are shared by many. Its funny how employees are subject to regular performance reviews,. but yet employers never stand humbly before their employees to be told how they are doing as employers. For the life of me I've never been able to figure out what it is about an employer\employee relationship that should have the employer with an inherent advantage. As far as I'm concerned both parties bring an equal stake to the table!!! So in response to your statement about being bitter I will say that Ive been burned a few times. Not every time but enough times to call it a prevailing attitude in the industry. And I also know that Im not alone in feeling this way. The saddest part about all this is that its getting worse rather than better. This change for the worse is what has me grateful to be retired. Heaven help the new blood with a lifetime ahead of them if things continue as they are.

First off, it's wrong if you to take your anger out on the OP. If you don't like your current situation then you need to do something about that and not complain about how someone else's shop is being run.

Secondly, the statement about employees and employers having an equal stake in the company is assanine. I know none of my employees and I'm sure you aren't responsible for the lease payments on machines, electricity bills, rent, payroll taxes, ect. That all falls on the employer. They have a much higher stake in the game then you. Sure, if you get fired or loose your job, things will be tough on your family, but most people find something else. If you don't like how much power the employer has over you, I suggest you start up your own company. There's plenty of used equipment out there to
Get you started and then when you hire an employee, give them an equal stake in the company.

OP, sorry for hijacking your thread, but it really ticks me off when people just complain about employers and, to quote Obama, say "you didn't build that, someone else did."

 

[turbotom1052]

First off, it's wrong if you to take your anger out on the OP. If you don't like your current situation then you need to do something about that and not complain about how someone else's shop is being run.

Secondly, the statement about employees and employers having an equal stake in the company is assanine. I know none of my employees and I'm sure you aren't responsible for the lease payments on machines, electricity bills, rent, payroll taxes, ect. That all falls on the employer. They have a much higher stake in the game then you. Sure, if you get fired or loose your job, things will be tough on your family, but most people find something else. If you don't like how much power the employer has over you, I suggest you start up your own company. There's plenty of used equipment out there to
Get you started and then when you hire an employee, give them an equal stake in the company.

OP, sorry for hijacking your thread, but it really ticks me off when people just complain about employers and, to quote Obama, say "you didn't build that, someone else did."

the stake I was referring to was a matter of human dignity. There is not a single thing that I can see that should give an unfair advantage to a company owner when it comes to human dignity. The human dignity I refer to here is a situation where (and I've seen it many times ) where the office is nicely air conditioned and the plant remains hot and humid during the summer months. Or where office workers are offered extra perks like bonuses and profit sharing and plant persons are not. Or where the general treatment of the guys that actually DO the work is substandard to the treatment of others in the company. If you re read my post you will also see that Im not referring to all employers. If your one of the decent owners then your excluded from this rant. I will not however sing your praises for doing what you should be doing as a member of the human race. If you've got a guilty conscience then perhaps you should try purging it by treating your employees better. The company you save may be your own!!!

 

[longlimb]

Soooo.... chilled rollers then?

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Chilled What? Oh I forgot what this thread was about!!

 

[longlimb]

Haha. I had to break the tension somehow. Sadly I'm still not sure what to do here.

 

[kansasquaker]

For the life of me I've never been able to figure out what it is about an employer\employee relationship that should have the employer with an inherent advantage. As far as I'm concerned both parties bring an equal stake to the table!!!

The difference maker in the relationship is that the employer owns all that stuff - you don't. Just like I don't get to dictate to you what happens in your own home - you don't get to dictate anything that happens in my plant on my equipment.

I agree with a lot of what you suggest and we do most of that here. But your overtop anger at plant owners is wholly unjustified. And if you think it's so freaking easy, why haven't you started your own shop after 35 years of running a press? Do you not have the financial acumen to figure it out? Maybe those people 'sitting on their duffs' know something you don't. When was the last time you sold any printing while running your press?

You are the type of person who gives press operators such a bad rap. But then again, you've been in the industry for 35 so you were pretty mollycoddled in the early 2/3rds of your career. Lots of people used to tolerate that sort of attitude and behavior from a press operator.

 

[turbotom1052]

The difference maker in the relationship is that the employer owns all that stuff - you don't. Just like I don't get to dictate to you what happens in your own home - you don't get to dictate anything that happens in my plant on my equipment.

I agree with a lot of what you suggest and we do most of that here. But your overtop anger at plant owners is wholly unjustified. And if you think it's so freaking easy, why haven't you started your own shop after 35 years of running a press? Do you not have the financial acumen to figure it out? Maybe those people 'sitting on their duffs' know something you don't. When was the last time you sold any printing while running your press?

You are the type of person who gives press operators such a bad rap. But then again, you've been in the industry for 35 so you were pretty mollycoddled in the early 2/3rds of your career. Lots of people used to tolerate that sort of attitude and behavior from a press operator.

The reason I'm speaking up now is that I haven't got a job to loose. Ive been retired for the last couple of years and am now saying what many people think, but are too afraid to verbalize, for fear of loosing their jobs. You speak of the employer owning all the stuff, well ill give you that. The thing is that along with all the risks come many rewards, this is as it should be, but not at the expense of treating employees like second class citizens. I don't begrudge any company owner making lots of money as long as their employees aren't having to go home and feed their kids form the local soup kitchen. This too I've seen. If I've struck a raw nerve with you then perhaps your one of the employers I mention. If your not then why take this thing so personal? You company owners always say "don't take it personal, its only biznez" Well what I'm saying is only words, in an attempt to make things a little better for the guys still in the trenches doing your bidding. My thinking is that the only people here that should be feeling offended are perhaps the very ones my words are meant to reach out to. If your treating your employees well theres no reason why you should take offense. If your not then shame on you. This is the very mentality that led to the formation of labor unions back in the days of the industrial revolution. And for the record I'm not a die hard union guy either. Ive been in labor unions and wound up walking away from a big pension so as to not have to compromise myself, and kiss ass to be put to work.

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

This thread sounds like
I went to a fight the other night, and a hockey game broke out."
If it were me buying a used press I would make sure someone goes and looks at the press running and printing, don't get into something that has been taken apart and hear someone say 'it ran fine"
You say you only run your current press at 10-11k an hour but what if your new press can run 15-16k an hour you would most likely need a decent dryer. Same goes for chilled rollers. I would continue to look for a press that had 4+ colours, Dryer and chilled rollers. You will have a very hard time retrofitting these options if you need them later. The used press market is a buyers market, negotiate hard.
Good luck

 

[dabob]

The difference maker in the relationship is that the employer owns all that stuff - you don't. Just like I don't get to dictate to you what happens in your own home - you don't get to dictate anything that happens in my plant on my equipment.

I agree with a lot of what you suggest and we do most of that here. But your overtop anger at plant owners is wholly unjustified. And if you think it's so freaking easy, why haven't you started your own shop after 35 years of running a press? Do you not have the financial acumen to figure it out? Maybe those people 'sitting on their duffs' know something you don't. When was the last time you sold any printing while running your press?

You are the type of person who gives press operators such a bad rap. But then again, you've been in the industry for 35 so you were pretty mollycoddled in the early 2/3rds of your career. Lots of people used to tolerate that sort of attitude and behavior from a press operator.

I just gotta throw in my 2 cents . . . Kansasquaker is absolutely correct - but he forgot some very salient points,

1st employees get paid every pay day - there was one year when my brother and I did not take one cent out of our business . . .

2nd employers have x number of families depending upon them for their financial well being

and to finish it off . . if not running the A/C saves enough money to keep the doors open . . would you really rather be "chilling" at home with no pay check or working in a plant getting paid even if its a little warm in the pressroom - just remember you could be out in the heat going from job interview to job interview in an industry which has undergone some serious downsizing in the last decade just be glad your employer managed to keep his doors open.

 

[longlimb]

This thread sounds like
I went to a fight the other night, and a hockey game broke out."
If it were me buying a used press I would make sure someone goes and looks at the press running and printing, don't get into something that has been taken apart and hear someone say 'it ran fine"
You say you only run your current press at 10-11k an hour but what if your new press can run 15-16k an hour you would most likely need a decent dryer. Same goes for chilled rollers. I would continue to look for a press that had 4+ colours, Dryer and chilled rollers. You will have a very hard time retrofitting these options if you need them later. The used press market is a buyers market, negotiate hard.
Good luck

Thanks CPT. I think I needed to hear someone say, get you want you really need.... Ok... now back to the action.... *ding *ding....

 

[turbotom1052]

I just gotta throw in my 2 cents . . . Kansasquaker is absolutely correct - but he forgot some very salient points,

1st employees get paid every pay day - there was one year when my brother and I did not take one cent out of our business . . .

2nd employers have x number of families depending upon them for their financial well being

and to finish it off . . if not running the A/C saves enough money to keep the doors open . . would you really rather be "chilling" at home with no pay check or working in a plant getting paid even if its a little warm in the pressroom - just remember you could be out in the heat going from job interview to job interview in an industry which has undergone some serious downsizing in the last decade just be glad your employer managed to keep his doors open.

does this mean you will be turning off the ac in the office? Money can be saved there too. If your an employer that keeps all your supposedly valued workers on during lean times then I applaud you. It seems to me that there is a definite trend going on to lay guys off at the first sign of a slow couple of days. These days they call it a furlough. Call it what you want but to the person out of work it amounts to no income. Then the best part happens. They call you back to work and after working 3 twelve hour days to finish up a bunch of rush jobs your sent home on wed night with another furlough instead of a chance at time and a half. Meanwhile the customer has been billed for rush work!!! Does that seem fair to you?
The part about not taking a salary is very admirable. But lets not loose sight of the fact that most employees during these lean times are being asked to do twice as much with half the resources. Then when things turn around and biznez picks up the pressure on the hourly employees doesn't ease up. Many company owners are back to their full salaries and a new car in the parking lot and the press crews are having to deal with 10 lbs of work stuffed into a 5 lb bag. Costs are cut everywhere. Save money by buying substandard materials. A lower and lower quality of paper. And no additional time to deal with the crap paper. To the contrary ... this is about the time that employees begin getting written up for either jobs with defects, or if you take your time to do a good job, the question becomes why did this job take so long? This is the disturbing trend Ive seen my last 10 years working in a pressroom. Its at this point that once valued employees, that have given their all for a company, become disposable. this is right about the time that a once valued employee is deemed as a trouble maker. Its also the time when moral begins to take a nosedive and companies become a revolving door of employees. Anyone recognize their company in what I'm saying? You usually won't because youl view it as "just business" It may be "just business" to you but I can assure you its not "just business" to the guy who hasn't had a decent raise in 5 years, or worse yet finds himself either underemployed or unemployed. Im sure his kids don't understand "just business" while the bossman pulls up to work in his newly leased Benz. Just saying.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Turbotom , you might want to turn the turbo off, it's coming on a little strong to a casual forum conversation. I think this whole employer/employee thing usually balances out pretty well if each of the parties aren't complete dicks.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Raising the Temperature !


Gentlemen,

"Work is about a search for daily meaning as well as daily bread, for recognition as well as

cash, for astonishment rather tha torpor; in short, for a sort of life rather than a

Monday through Friday sort of dying" ------- Studs Terkel

 

[arossetti]

If we can all agree that no one here has been press-ganged into a printing company then I believe all of this is irrelevant. You have the freedom to work and or do whatever it is that makes you satisfied in life. If working for a big bad printing plant owner doesn't tickle your fancy there are other options, no one has forced you to stay.

 

[aqazi81]

I totally agree with you Turbotom. These matters are even worse in the developing countries.
I request the admin to remove ban on Turbotom as he has always been a good contributor to the forum.

Now turn off the IR and chill....