Unbeatable Ryobi 3302 toning.

[lantz_xvx]

Hey everyone,

The monster of a toning issue is back. Or actually it never left. I've got a Ryobi 3302 with the Crestline Altra system on it. Both heads have all new rollers except for the hard rollers (every rubber roller is brand new). I'm using Total Chrome Free fountain solution at about half an ounce to a 28oz bottle, and poly plates. The first head runs fairly well, but the second head gives me this wide band of toning from the OPS to the NOPS. I've attached a picture to this message so you can see what I mean.

I've checked and re-checked the roller stripes countless times, every form roller plus all the Crestline adjustments. The stripes are set to spec, and are the same as they are on the first unit, which prints well. Same plates, same fountain solution ratio, same everything, and yet there must be some variable that's screwing me up. What could it be? I don't recall when the problem started - it's definitely been since I put new rollers in, but when I switched ink rollers, I actually did that head first and then did the first head, which, again, prints well. Not to harp on that, but I just want to drive home the point that I've done all the obvious things and still can't beat this. I'm seriously at a loss.

Before I call in the technician, I figured I'd make one more last ditch effort to figure this out. Can anyone think of anything?

Thanks,
- Lantz

 

[smalloffsetpressexperts]

Run a dry solid. No water just all ink, See what happens and share a photo. Unit 2 is the problem right?

 

[lantz_xvx]

I'm out of the shop today but can give that a shot tomorrow, and will definitely share a picture. Yeah, unit 2 is the issue. The first unit used to print badly but once I got new rollers in it and got them dialed in, it seemed to perform a lot better.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

*******

*******

Hello Lantz,


IS the "Scum Mark/ Catch-up" --- Always in the same area ?? - halfway around the Plate circumference ????



Regards, Alois

 

[MnGremlin]

Poly plates need a 600 conductivity ph means nothing to plastic, try more fountain concentrate. I use 12oz to the gallon of distilled water. Distilled water has a 0 conductivity so you can add fountain to get it up to 600 milamp.

 

[Alan Rand]

I agree with MnGremlin. Get your conductivity up to 600 at least. Used to start with it around 1200 - 1500 in the day. Experiment with your fountain solution. What's the conductivity at the source? I've seen tap water run from 350 to over 800 at some shops. Also is the chemistry in your dpm where it's supposed to be? Are the plates "burning" evenly? Just a thought...

 

[smalloffsetpressexperts]

Just a note:
The user stated Unit 1 performs fine and Unit 2 does not. Why would the chemistry work in Unit 1 and NOT unit 2.
As for conductivity: That pure water source is measured first, Than the fountain solution is added to bring the conductivity up to what the poly plates he is using require to perform. Ph is also a factor. Ph may not mean anything to plastic but to Ink it does.

People sometimes get crazy with all the chemistry stuff when in the Accel manual it shows the requirements. Ink is also important concerning the water pick-up level and pigment levels, Roller wash is another factor. We have too many 3302M&H’s out there with Crestlines that just run all day without a bunch of BS problems.
I will wait to see the dry solid he pulls on unit 2. Plus a video of the machine running may help determine the condition of the press.

 

[Alan Rand]

The man stated " the first head runs FAIRLY well. FAIRLY well is "I'm not happy with it." The second unit not so good. Trying to fix a press problem without actually being there is pretty hard to do. I know PH can trash ink if the solution is too hot. I also know that if it's too weak it won't print. It'll scum and wash out. I agreed that the conductivity needed to be at least 600, not that bit about plastic and PH. I simply made some suggestions that could be considered. I'm not there, so I do not know for sure. I've ran and worked on both the Ryobi and the AB Dick 9995A for several years. Not a fan of either or the water system mentioned. They're just too touchy for me. I'd rather run a Roland, or a Meihle any day. Have a great day. R.

 

[Richard]

Low spot in dampener roller, blanket packing?

Not sure.

 

[keith1]

Hmmm.
I know you've checked the roller pressures but it still sure looks like that. Sometimes pressures can look good when you have too much pressure. Have you tried backing off some. Just a thought. An easy test for water pressure is pulling a strip of film to feel that the tension is even. If you can't pull the film between roller & plate at all, you have too much pressure.

 

[lantz_xvx]

Guys! Somehow I totally missed all these replies. My apologies. Thanks for all the input. I probably missed these because after going through my pressures again, some things were off and I ended up getting the head to work. I also found a ton of dried ink and crap that was preventing my ink ductor roller from ducting properly, so the Crestline wasn't getting enough ink. Once I figured that out, it was almost too easy. But now it's got the toning disease again! I think that when the weather got warmer (we work in a commercial space that's basically a glorified garage, so not in the least bit temperature controlled), it threw everything off and I'm having trouble getting back to a good place.

I've inked up with yellow to check the pressures numerous times but it's just not giving me clean prints. It's not as drastic as before, where there was a wide band in the center of the sheet. Now it's just sort of general toning all over. I mean the whole blanket is getting inked, essentially, because of all the toning. Ink forms to plate is 3mm. Water form to plate is 4mm. I went through all the Crestline adjustments and got them all to spec. The ductor roller is fine. The ink train cleans up pretty fast and thorough, although the Crestline pan roller seems to have trouble on the ends. Maybe the issue is somewhere in the Crestlines, they're so damn finicky. I spent lots of time today trying to dial it in. I think I'll probably just have to start fresh and see how it goes on Monday..

 

[Dan Roll]

At just over two ounces per gallon of Varn Toatl Chrome Free, you are not running much in the way of fountain solution. Perhaps an increase in fountain solution ingredients would be beneficial.

 

[lantz_xvx]

Hey Dan, just to clarify, I'm running about 1oz per 28 ounces, the other guy is doing 2oz per 32 ounces. I know people that run 1-2oz per gallon with metal plates, and yeah, it doesn't seem like much. We're far from that in this case, though.

 

[Dan Roll]

Sorry, another attempt to do math in my head. Using a calculator the number comes up at 4.57 oz/gl, which should be adequate.
On the other hand, Total (even the chrome free version) is a very old product and a more modern solution might have some advantages.....

 

[Dan Roll]

In addition to poor math, I will add poor reading comprehension to my faults. You said clearly you were running one half ounce per twenty eight ounces so 128/28=4.5714 times .5 = 2.2857 ounces per gallon. I would certainly consider running more......

 

[lantz_xvx]

Hey Dan, no worries, we've all been there! Thanks for the advice, I'll try adding more fountain solution. I realized that when I said "the other guy" that I didn't clarify (I posted this on another forum as well, so I mixed the two up). We also have an AB Dick 360 with Crestlines running the same plates made in the same way (HP 5100), the same ink and the same fountain solution, but we realized that he was just adding more fountain solution before the water.

I'm actually going to go back through the pressures ooonnnneeeeee more time, and then try upping the fount, just because I want to be sure that everything is good. I'll probably run some deglazer through the Crestline as well and clean up thoroughly before any of that.

 

[jimas67]

I run a 3302 but I use metal plates. I did have a problem at first with it running ink down the sides off of each corner as I was printing. I pulled all rollers out that I was able to gave them a good scrub down. Reset all pressures through out the press. That helped me. It also has a crestline on both heads and I pretty much had to reset the pressure on all those too! 3.0 on roller strips, 3.5 roller to plate, on the crestline I went by the crestline specs for a 3302. Good luck I hope you get your problem fixed

 

[jayson14]

Sure I am late to this thread. Not sure if this has been solved or not. Guessing by everything I have read here, I would suggest checking that all the form rollers spin freely when on night latch. I would go as far as taking all rollers out except the form a be sure the spin with no hiccups. If so inspect the form rods, make sure none are slightly bent, clean any old dried grease etc.