Unknown Feature Discovered In Illustrator

[chevalier]

Perhaps I am very late to the dance but I recently received files with two Pantone colors overprinting. The proofs generated a result that looked pretty nice but in reality the opacities of the inks on press created a wildly different result. We very strongly push customers not to use these techniques because of software and proofers near total inability to simulate opacity (are you listening vendors?!). The customer didn't like the print job and after a very verbose discussion took our advice to let us convert to CMYK and see what we could come up with as a match to the inkjet proof they wanted to match. This is a fairly common occurrence in packaging preflight as everyone is obsessed with the overuse of spot colors.

We opened the files and couldn't figure out how in the world these dual color objects were created. Usually you'll find two objects with the one on top set to overprint, or multiply via transparency. We were stumped for a while then I noticed on the appearance panel that dual fills were utilized. My team has 50+ years of combined digital prepress work and none of us had every seen or known multiple fills were possible via the appearance panel. You can even mix multiple gradient fills, etc. which is a possible recipe for a real nightmare. I figured this was worth sharing. Adobe Illustrator CC2014 PDF is attached for reference.

 

[Ben]

I also work in packaging and get the most crazy pms jobs but this i have never seen. I always wonder how the designer makes the decision to mix 2 pms colors. Nobody can predict the result up front. Maybe we should close this topic down so that you don't give anyone a "good" idea .

 

[Possumgal]

Didn't you know? The designer only has to make it look good on screen. It's up to YOU to make it work on the press.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

We opened the files and couldn't figure out how in the world these dual color objects were created. Usually you'll find two objects with the one on top set to overprint, or multiply via transparency. We were stumped for a while then I noticed on the appearance panel that dual fills were utilized. My team has 50+ years of combined digital prepress work and none of us had every seen or known multiple fills were possible via the appearance panel. You can even mix multiple gradient fills, etc. which is a possible recipe for a real nightmare. I figured this was worth sharing.

Yes, the Appearance panel is one of the keys to using Illustrator – for both file inspection/working out what has taken place and for building artwork. When making maps, having the ability to create multiple fill and strokes applied to a single object is critical as it is not workable to have to duplicate paths multiple times.


Stephen Marsh

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Chevalier wrote:

The proofs generated a result that looked pretty nice but in reality the opacities of the inks on press created a wildly different result. We very strongly push customers not to use these techniques because of software and proofers near total inability to simulate opacity (are you listening vendors?!).

Ben wrote:

I always wonder how the designer makes the decision to mix 2 pms colors. Nobody can predict the result up front.

I agree that with creative software such as from Adobe, it is hard to obtain an accurate preview of spot colours overprinting spot colours or even process colours, not to mention tints. There is only solid spot colour information – there is no info on ink opacity, dot gain, trapping behaviour, ink lay down sequence etc.

I would offer the contrary opinion that some software vendors do know of these issues and have provided solutions for many years (in one case 20+ years), while some recent advances in technology and open international standards are set to re-write the rules…

We have many high end clients using the Kodak Approval to create accurate proofs of spot colours interacting with other spots or process colours. I have seen their portfolios of Approval proofs next to the press results, these are used to sell their prepress services to brands and converters.

Some proprietary softproofing and inkjet proofing solutions have been using Spectral data for a number of years, due to it’s ability to correctly render spot colour behaviour.

CGS ORIS Colour Tuner Web has the ability to set an opacity and ink order for spot colours and has the ability to “predict” spot colour overprint behaviour using a calculation that builds a lookup table (with various degrees of success).

The latest version of ORIS CTW also has the ability to read embedded CxF/X-4 information from a PDF file and use this “rich” data to accurately predict and proof spot colour overprints. This is a huge step forward…

There is a new ISO standard – 17972. This new standard uses CxF (XML based) information to communicate spot colour information throughout the supply chain (Brand > Design > Prepress > Ink Lab > Print Production). Spectral reflectance data and is used instead of colorimetric data. A minimum of 6 patches can be used to capture spot colour behaviour. Ideally only 22 patches are recommended for greater accuracy (not thousands of patches as with traditional ICC profiling).

More info:

http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_det...csnumber=61500

http://www.streetinsider.com/Press+...xF)+Format+as+Industry+Standard/10643624.html

http://www.xrite.com/documents/compa...ISO_CxF_en.pdf

http://www.cgs-oris.com/index.php/en...is-cxf-toolbox

http://www.color.org/CxF_test.xalter



Stephen Marsh

 

[chevalier]

When making maps, having the ability to create multiple fill and strokes applied to a single object is critical as it is not workable to have to duplicate paths multiple times.

Do you have a sample file of this? I don't quite understand its usefulness in this regard. I'm genuinely curious.

 

[chevalier]

I took some liberty with your post and broke it into (my own) logical parts.

CGS ORIS Colour Tuner Web has the ability to set an opacity and ink order for spot colours and has the ability to “predict” spot colour overprint behaviour using a calculation that builds a lookup table (with various degrees of success).

The latest version of ORIS CTW also has the ability to read embedded CxF/X-4 information from a PDF file and use this “rich” data to accurately predict and proof spot colour overprints. This is a huge step forward…

I just purchased a new 9900 and I am upgrading to v3 of CTW when it arrives. I was already excited about this but I'll believe it when I see it work. I've been burned by optimism before.

I agree that with creative software such as from Adobe, it is hard to obtain an accurate preview of spot colours overprinting spot colours or even process colours, not to mention tints. There is only solid spot colour information – there is no info on ink opacity, dot gain, trapping behaviour, ink lay down sequence etc.

I would offer the contrary opinion that some software vendors do know of these issues and have provided solutions for many years (in one case 20+ years), while some recent advances in technology and open international standards are set to re-write the rules…

I've yet to see any software with my own eyes that's any more advanced than totally opaque or totally transparent. Introduce overprints and transparency and the opaques totally loose this preview attribute.

Some proprietary softproofing and inkjet proofing solutions have been using Spectral data for a number of years, due to it’s ability to correctly render spot colour behaviour.

True, but opacity is a huge weak spot because inkjet inks are all totally transparent with exception of those special metallics and whites. The proofs I mentioned produced the same result from GMG on an HP and CGS on an Epson 9900. They were library Pantone colors.

There is a new ISO standard – 17972. This new standard uses CxF (XML based) information to communicate spot colour information throughout the supply chain (Brand > Design > Prepress > Ink Lab > Print Production). Spectral reflectance data and is used instead of colorimetric data. A minimum of 6 patches can be used to capture spot colour behaviour. Ideally only 22 patches are recommended for greater accuracy (not thousands of patches as with traditional ICC profiling).

I was already excited about this but I'll believe it when I see it work. I've been burned by optimism before.

We have many high end clients using the Kodak Approval to create accurate proofs of spot colours interacting with other spots or process colours. I have seen their portfolios of Approval proofs next to the press results, these are used to sell their prepress services to brands and converters.

I have a Fujifilm FinalProof and receive proofs from Kodak Approvals on a near daily basis. These proofers use nearly completely transparent donor films to achieve their colors. These are nearly as bad as an Epson 9900 when it comes to accurately simulating opacity. Both donor film transfer proofers and direct to substrate inkjet proofers, as well as inkjet transfer film proofers can simulate spot colors within their gamut but generally speaking do a pretty bad job at simulating overprints and builds from spot colors that have any opaqueness. We generally remove the traps layers before producing hardcopy proofs to prevent complaints and concerns about halos, etc.

EDIT/ADDENDUM:
After a night's sleep I realize that a very sophisticated RIP itself could possibly and conceivably deal with these scenarios. I have yet to see this in practice including the latest greatest samples I got from ORIS FlexPack (the most popular solution to replace Kodak Approval and Fujifilm FinalProof).

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Do you have a sample file of this? I don't quite understand its usefulness in this regard. I'm genuinely curious.

I quickly knocked something together (ai/pdf attached in .zip format).

A single path, that uses appearance that would have used 3 paths without appearance. If I need to make an edit, it only takes an edit to one path – not an edit to three paths that has to be exactly the same. Multiply this by many paths when drawing a more complex street or other map.


Stephen Marsh

 

[schenkadere]

No offense, but that feature has been around a long time...I believe since version 9. It's amazing that you've never come across this before.

 

[chevalier]

No offense, but that feature has been around a long time...I believe since version 9. It's amazing that you've never come across this before.

None taken. My whole team was kind of shocked and wondered how long it had been there. It seems to totally defeat the purpose and need for the Esko "BoostX" InkMix plugin too.

 

[chevalier]

I quickly knocked something together (ai/pdf attached in .zip format).

A single path, that uses appearance that would have used 3 paths without appearance. If I need to make an edit, it only takes an edit to one path – not an edit to three paths that has to be exactly the same. Multiply this by many paths when drawing a more complex street or other map.


Stephen Marsh

Awesome. Totally get it now. Thanks.

 

[schenkadere]

None taken. My whole team was kind of shocked and wondered how long it had been there. It seems to totally defeat the purpose and need for the Esko "BoostX" InkMix plugin too.

Yup...Adobe seriously borrowed featured from Artwork Systems ArtPro prior to Esko.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I just purchased a new 9900 and I am upgrading to v3 of CTW when it arrives. I was already excited about this but I'll believe it when I see it work. I’ve been burned by optimism before.

Keep in mind that the ORIS CxF Toolbox & ORIS CXF Designer software is the first publicly available product that supports the new ISO standard (which I believe has not yet been released). Currently this is the only software that I know of that can embed this data into a current version PDF file.

http://www.cgsusa.com/press-release...s-of-america-technology-award-for-innovation/

The sample PDF available from the ICC.org website is a proof of concept only and may not actually represent the final standard. I believe that the upcoming PDF v2.0 specification will support embedding CxF/X-4 data in PDF files as part of an open standard.

ORIS CTW 3 supporting CxF/X-4 data and spectral reflectance rendering is only half the story – the PDF files being input need to have the CxF data embedded for ORIS CTW to use, otherwise it will simply use the standard spot colour tables.

I was already excited about this but I’ll believe it when I see it work. I’ve been burned by optimism before.

Yes, you are not the only one. I don’t believe that this is all smoke and mirrors and I know that the technology is there and there has been decades of work put into this – however I can hear the cry of “show me the money”.


Stephen Marsh

 

[WI-Flexo]

A little late to this discussion but wanted to add that appearances from the appearance palette can be dragged to graphic styles and quickly applied to other elements. Hugely convenient for pushback settings that need to be applied to many elements in a design for instance. Highly recommend everyone learns the appearance palette. You will grow to LOVE it!

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Another example of appearance and effects.

http://www.designeasy.co/2012/02/how-to-apply-stroke-around-multiple.html


Stephen Marsh