Upgrading digital and other equipment

[KeepSwimming]

Last year I purchased a relatively small print shop. It's time to upgrade the equipment and that is not my fortay.
Currently we have Ricohs, a Pro 7100s and a 4501. Neither is supported for NCR or window envelopes, and anything smaller than a #10 needs to be opened first (personally I find that easier than closing them when done). We have had to outsource larger NCR and window envelope jobs - not cost effective. Then again, opening and closing envelopes in house isn't cost effective either. I have recently been running NCR on my current machines, but Ricoh has made it clear that they won't cover repairs caused by NCR if I continue.

I was looking at a Ricoh 7210x and a Canon C910. Ricoh says the C910 can't compare to the 7210 - so they are now proposing a C5310s. I think the 7210 is a better comparison, but price wise they can't compete with Canon.
I have been trying to weigh all the differences to determine what I need, including the Efi Fiery options, which booklet maker, etc. I want to grow the business but funds are tight.
I also NEED a Duplo to cut/score/perf because my finishing equipment is on it's last leg and my cutter doesn't work right.
I think getting an iJet would be a good solution for printing window and regular envelopes. Both the C910 and the 7210 support NCR printing.
I'm thinking of keeping the 7100 - even though it will be out of contract - as my back up machine, and for laser safe letterhead (the Canon is not laser safe on some office printers).
Does anyone have any opinions on the Ricoh 7210, 5310 or Canon C910? The iJet or Duplu?
Does anyone have a method to determine the best equipment investment? This is daunting and I don't want to make the wrong choices. Thank you in advance!

 

[Shawnd]

My 2cents as your volume will dictate what you need: I had (2) 7110sx's, I kept 1, (it is still under service contract btw) and went with a 7200e. I went with the e incase we need to add 5th color down the road to it. I have 5th color on the 7110sx that I kept. I checked out the 5310 but from talking to the techs it is a PIA to work on compared to the 7200. I would highly recommend the TCRU program as well from Ricoh as it will allow you to work on your machines, I only see my tech when something serious happens or for the usual checkups when the machine calls in.

Finishing equipment is going to depend on your volume, the good stuff is expensive, will you be able to grow your volume? I would check out wirebids and see if you can pick up an older model so your saving some $$$ if you can work on it or get a service contract on it. Same with an envelope printer.

 

[Ynot_UK]

I’d also compare offerings from the other two of the “big four” - KM and Xerox. KM are launching the C4080 series this week and I seem to recall reading Xerox have just or are about to launch new product.

Get your guillotine fixed. Whilst a Duplo SCC may be useful, it's not a substitute for a ream cutter, which is the No.1 piece of finishing equipment in most shops.

Regarding a booklet maker, personally I'm an advocate of offline finishing. Pick up a decent refurbished standalone booklet maker and it will outlast your print engines 3 or 4 times over, plus will give you the versatility of not being tied to one engine.

Regarding method to determine best investment, we ask:

• Will we make at least the year one depreciation charge (in our case 25% of the purchase price before tax) as incremental profit in year one?
• What jobs will the investment enable us to do in-house that we currently outsource?
• Soft benefits (that don't show on the accounts) such as decreasing turnaround times, removing a frustration or dependability on another supplier/courier/whatever has gone wrong or caused a headache in the past
• Is it a 'must have'? There are some machines that you may use irregularly, but as a print shop it is expected you have the functionality (that machine will be different from shop to shop, for us it is the creaser/perforator)

Hope this helps

 

[azehnali]

maybe you should consider a remanufactured versant 180 with booklet maker and trimmer and scoring options ?
are there any independent Xerox service people in your area?

 

[pippip]

I'd agree with Ynot_UK, guillotine is a must for us. Especially if you do NCR, a Duplo SCC will be useless for any NCR work I would have thought.

 

[KeepSwimming]

My 2cents as your volume will dictate what you need: I had (2) 7110sx's, I kept 1, (it is still under service contract btw) and went with a 7200e. I went with the e incase we need to add 5th color down the road to it. I have 5th color on the 7110sx that I kept. I checked out the 5310 but from talking to the techs it is a PIA to work on compared to the 7200. I would highly recommend the TCRU program as well from Ricoh as it will allow you to work on your machines, I only see my tech when something serious happens or for the usual checkups when the machine calls in.

Finishing equipment is going to depend on your volume, the good stuff is expensive, will you be able to grow your volume? I would check out wirebids and see if you can pick up an older model so your saving some $$$ if you can work on it or get a service contract on it. Same with an envelope printer.

Thanks Shawnd, I am convinced Ricoh is proposing the 5310 just to more competitive in pricing. I'm a little concerned about used equipment - I bought a full shop of it LOL! But, I will look into that option.

 

[KeepSwimming]

I’d also compare offerings from the other two of the “big four” - KM and Xerox. KM are launching the C4080 series this week and I seem to recall reading Xerox have just or are about to launch new product.

Get your guillotine fixed. Whilst a Duplo SCC may be useful, it's not a substitute for a ream cutter, which is the No.1 piece of finishing equipment in most shops.

Regarding a booklet maker, personally I'm an advocate of offline finishing. Pick up a decent refurbished standalone booklet maker and it will outlast your print engines 3 or 4 times over, plus will give you the versatility of not being tied to one engine.

Regarding method to determine best investment, we ask:

• Will we make at least the year one depreciation charge (in our case 25% of the purchase price before tax) as incremental profit in year one?
• What jobs will the investment enable us to do in-house that we currently outsource?
• Soft benefits (that don't show on the accounts) such as decreasing turnaround times, removing a frustration or dependability on another supplier/courier/whatever has gone wrong or caused a headache in the past
• Is it a 'must have'? There are some machines that you may use irregularly, but as a print shop it is expected you have the functionality (that machine will be different from shop to shop, for us it is the creaser/perforator)

Hope this helps

KM and Xerox don't have much support in our area. I've noticed very few of the shops use them for that reason. I agree, we should keep the guillotine, but how can I get it fixed? The only company I know of is 2 hours away - and they're the ones who installed it in the first place.

I currently have 2 booklet makers that are useless. Again, in our location there aren't many options for repairs. We google a lot, but that's time consuming too.

I like your investment strategy, and will see how that looks for us. I really appreciate your imput!

 

[KeepSwimming]

maybe you should consider a remanufactured versant 180 with booklet maker and trimmer and scoring options ?
are there any independent Xerox service people in your area?

Unfortunately, not many options in our area, but that sounds like it's worth a look.

 

[KeepSwimming]

Thank you all for your input - now who wants to be my purchasing agent
Seriously, I do appreciate your time and consideration!

 

[Ynot_UK]

I agree, we should keep the guillotine, but how can I get it fixed? The only company I know of is 2 hours away - and they're the ones who installed it in the first place.

How old is the guillotine?
Have you owned it from new?
What make/model is it?
What problems are you having with it?
If it worked as it should, does it do everything you need, or would you be looking for other capabilities, such as a longer cut?

All these factors should influence whether you pay for a call-out & service, or look to offload it and upgrade. If the latter, given your position I'd be inclined to look for a trade-in against the replacement, otherwise you may end up with a boat anchor nobody wants taking up valuable space and paying to scrap it.

 

[azehnali]

Thank you all for your input - now who wants to be my purchasing agent
Seriously, I do appreciate your time and consideration!

send me a message
I maybe a able to help you out

 

[KeepSwimming]

How old is the guillotine?
Have you owned it from new?
What make/model is it?
What problems are you having with it?
If it worked as it should, does it do everything you need, or would you be looking for other capabilities, such as a longer cut?

All these factors should influence whether you pay for a call-out & service, or look to offload it and upgrade. If the latter, given your position I'd be inclined to look for a trade-in against the replacement, otherwise you may end up with a boat anchor nobody wants taking up valuable space and paying to scrap it.

Yes, I definitely have some boat anchors around here!
I really don't know how old the guillotines are but both are Pro-Cut model 235, programmable - but they are a little different from each other.
One had to be banged on the side in order to get it to work most of the time, something about a module or sensor that they could no longer get. Then a belt broke and it's been sitting for almost 2 years.
The other works, but when it was installed, there was a piece of acrylic that apparently needed to be glued to the back stop - so someone glued it, but it's not exactly even so our cuts are off maybe 1/32" from left to right when placing 11" stock in the center. The buttons to activate the blade are a little "sticky" - meaning you have to press more than once for the blade to go down without jumping back up. Most importantly, however, is that we can't cut anything less than 2.75" and I have no idea why or how to fix that.

We are having issues with our GW 6000 for perfing and scoring, though it works fine for numbering. I have replaced a lot of tires, etc. The stock exits crocked so the perf/score isn't straight, no matter what we do. However, we are currently doing the perf/score on the Baum Folder and that's working okay so far.

You have all made me think that even though the Duplo sounds great and would be a huge time saver, it might not be worth the investment right now. My biggest concern is trying to keep my employees from getting frustrated with the current finishing equipment. We are a 3 man shop, including me, and I value my employees greatly.

 

[KeepSwimming]

send me a message
I maybe a able to help you out

Thanks! See if my last post clarifies anything.

 

[Ynot_UK]

One had to be banged on the side in order to get it to work most of the time, something about a module or sensor that they could no longer get. Then a belt broke and it's been sitting for almost 2 years.
The other works, but when it was installed, there was a piece of acrylic that apparently needed to be glued to the back stop - so someone glued it, but it's not exactly even so our cuts are off maybe 1/32" from left to right when placing 11" stock in the center. The buttons to activate the blade are a little "sticky" - meaning you have to press more than once for the blade to go down without jumping back up.

Personally I wouldn't go anywhere near a cutter that behaved like that, nor allow others to, knowing it was not working as intended by the manufacturer.
Perhaps I'm being over cautious, my thought is simply this - you only need one mishap with a guillotine to leave you with a permanent and possibly life changing injury.
Not sure how the law stands where you are, but in the UK you must have regular inspections to satisfy HSE regulations.

 

[KeepSwimming]

Personally I wouldn't go anywhere near a cutter that behaved like that, nor allow others to, knowing it was not working as intended by the manufacturer.
Perhaps I'm being over cautious, my thought is simply this - you only need one mishap with a guillotine to leave you with a permanent and possibly life changing injury.
Not sure how the law stands where you are, but in the UK you must have regular inspections to satisfy HSE regulations.

Exactly, that's why we don't use that one at all anymore.

 

[idahodian]

Local County Government so we run a lot of envelopes and NCR paper. We used to share printing NCR on a Xerox 4127 and have had lots of issues. We changed to a dedicated machine for NCR, a xerox D95, bought a CPO machine and have had it for over two years, only had a handful of service calls in that time. We run 0- 25 packages in a day. For envelopes we used the iJet classic, works well on #9 and #10's, and 6 x9. We run larger on one of our 2 Xerox 3100, works better, with all the spoilage we had it is worth the little extra time removing the printed envelopes from the top tray. We have a guillotine, but we also have the DUPLO 646, works great for everything except perforating 20# paper, but it's not rated for that anyway. Business cards were never great on the guillotine, so the Duplo is a real time saver, and I think it will last for many years. Three of our machines are CPO, we had been wanting a 3100 for a few years but the $145k price tag stopped us. We tried a new Duplo 150CR booklet last year and could get it to work, even had Duple send a tech to assist and gave up and sent it back. The rep final offered the CPO pricing for a Xerox 3100 at $45K came with 3 sided trimming booklet maker also, so we were able to make the purchase.

 

[Ynot_UK]

Exactly, that's why we don't use that one at all anymore.

[pedant]
I wouldn't use either of them, based on what you've said above
[/pedant]

 

[KeepSwimming]

Local County Government so we run a lot of envelopes and NCR paper. We used to share printing NCR on a Xerox 4127 and have had lots of issues. We changed to a dedicated machine for NCR, a xerox D95, bought a CPO machine and have had it for over two years, only had a handful of service calls in that time. We run 0- 25 packages in a day. For envelopes we used the iJet classic, works well on #9 and #10's, and 6 x9. We run larger on one of our 2 Xerox 3100, works better, with all the spoilage we had it is worth the little extra time removing the printed envelopes from the top tray. We have a guillotine, but we also have the DUPLO 646, works great for everything except perforating 20# paper, but it's not rated for that anyway. Business cards were never great on the guillotine, so the Duplo is a real time saver, and I think it will last for many years. Three of our machines are CPO, we had been wanting a 3100 for a few years but the $145k price tag stopped us. We tried a new Duplo 150CR booklet last year and could get it to work, even had Duple send a tech to assist and gave up and sent it back. The rep final offered the CPO pricing for a Xerox 3100 at $45K came with 3 sided trimming booklet maker also, so we were able to make the purchase.

Thanks for your input idahodian! Xerox really isn't a viable option in my market. How much time do you think you save in a day with the Duplo 646? As i understand you can set it and walk away.

 

[Shawnd]

I have the graphic whizard ptt scc, the amount of time it saves you depends on what you are doing. You can cut down stuff faster on a cutter but with these types of machines you can load and walk away and get everything done in one pass, especially if you hook a folder up to it.

 

[idahodian]

Thanks for your input idahodian! Xerox really isn't a viable option in my market. How much time do you think you save in a day with the Duplo 646? As i understand you can set it and walk away.

We used to have to reprint stuff cut wrong, especially business cards, usually the stack didn't get pushed back in the guillotine cutter and then the whole stack was messed up. We use it for bleed trimming, greeting cards, postcards (bleed) and tons of business cards. With your preset jobs it is wonderful, and truly load and walk away. It did come with some templates, but I prefer to use the wizard feature and the step by step and save jobs for reuse. Takes some patience and a few wasted sheets to set up, I haven't been able to train my one staff, she gives up, but that is how she handles most new things, and she did not pay attention during the training. She just uses the jobs I create, hasn't worked well for her when I am on vacation. I think it is easy to setup.