Versant 180 = KM ???? = Canon ????

[mojoprime]

We're currently using a v80 and quite happy with it but the lease is out and we're month to month so we're reviewing our options. I've been looking at the KM and Canon machines trying to find an equivalent and was hoping you guys can steer me in the right direction if i'm way off.

Look likes the Canon 850/750 is close from their side but it gets a little confusing on the KM side. Is it the c1805? or 2070? the 3080 looks closer in specs and duty cycle -- maybe a little ahead. the 6100 looks like a beast but i think that's probably out of our price range.

I've been reading the posts along here and it seems that everybody's had almost equally bad vs. good experiences with the v180, canon 850/750, and some of the KM models I mentioned. I know to stay away from the C8000 so i didn't even look at that. We've got a lot of experience with Xerox machines, going all the way back to a Phaser 7700 and I'm pretty strong on the brand and the reliability. But honestly i don't know a whole lot about KM or Canon -- i've got some sort of bad feeling about Canon but i don't know why.

What do you folks think?

 

[pippip]

We've got a v80 to. Be a year or two before we'll even be looking but at the moment I'm always keeping an eye on ricoh. They look impressive.

 

[jwheeler]

KM's unit in that same class is the C3080. It's 80ppm like the V80, handles 350gsm duplex, envelopes, and long sheet mode. The C1085 that you mentioned is no longer in production, and the C2070 was replaced by the C3070. Some dealers might still have some C2070's in inventory for a bargain. The only difference was that you can have both the long sheet feeder and the high-cap 3-drawer vacuum feeder in one system. The C2070 was limited to 1 or the other. A step up from the C3080 would be the C6085. This is 85ppm, handles 400gsm duplex, and doesn't slow down for any weight of supported media...it's a much more rubust engine. Just ask to look inside both and you'll immediately see the difference. The C3080 is still a great machine, but will slow down to almost half speed with cover weight as will the V80. Be sure to get the decurling relay unit and if you can fit/afford it, get the IQ-501. This unit will automatically monitor the color and registration on every sheet and adjust on the fly. No more need for calibration or manually adjusting the front/back alignment when loading new media in a drawer.

 

[gazfocus]

We have a KM C3070 and it does 400gsm Duplex (although not officially supported) and I’ve not noticed it slowing down on cover stocks.

 

[jwheeler]

I’ve not noticed it slowing down on cover stocks.

It does slow down after 220gsm if you put in the paper weight properly. It’s published in the customer expectation guide you should have received when you got the machine under the section where it shows speeds for different weights and sizes. It’s not quite half speed...more like 60% speed.

 

[mojoprime]

Thanks so much for your replies. I’m going to grab my difficult jobs and a ream of good and bad paper and see what happens.

 

[mojoprime]

so, the reps came back with the 3070 and the 750 as comparable to the v180. i'm curious to see the quotes and how the extras add up.

 

[namelessentity]

The 750 sucks. I've said it a few times. Do not buy it for production, it is a fancy office printer. It can't hold registration for crap, and it will jam all day on you running envelopes.

 

[mojoprime]

namelessentity, how long have you been running your 750? i thought it was supposed to be good at holding front to back registration. just wondering about your experiences. all of it i use to question the sales folks. is it jamming on all sizes of envelopes?

 

[namelessentity]

We got it as a "backup" for our Imagepress 10,000. I hardly use it because everything bounces and just becomes a re-do on the 10k when it gets fixed. We have a few clients that have us do long sheet jobs, and they bounce up to .25" at times. One of my techs told me it's an office machine and he doesn't understand why they try to sell it as production.

The envelopes will just randomly jam. Like you'll run a box of 250 A7s. It will run 100+ without issue, then suddenly it won't pull from any of the trays, then it will jam in the fuser on every pull and you'll hobble through the last 150 and want to put your hand through the wall.
I've had the most issues with larger envelopes, but it's been rather problematic on all sizes I've tried besides maybe #10 envelopes.

 

[bill kahny]

We got it as a "backup" for our Imagepress 10,000. I hardly use it because everything bounces and just becomes a re-do on the 10k when it gets fixed. We have a few clients that have us do long sheet jobs, and they bounce up to .25" at times. One of my techs told me it's an office machine and he doesn't understand why they try to sell it as production.

The envelopes will just randomly jam. Like you'll run a box of 250 A7s. It will run 100+ without issue, then suddenly it won't pull from any of the trays, then it will jam in the fuser on every pull and you'll hobble through the last 150 and want to put your hand through the wall.
I've had the most issues with larger envelopes, but it's been rather problematic on all sizes I've tried besides maybe #10 envelopes.

I have the opposite experience. I love my c750 have run every size envelope even bleeding 10x13 by lying to it. Its far better than a riso I have or the 2 OKI models I've used in the past. Controlling the curl of the envelopes before they are loaded is key, precurl all 4 corners away from the image side, I get very few jams.

A .25 inch bounce in the run -- NEVER. I have to ask if you are defining the paper correctly or just load and run?

I am blessed with good techs here.

 

[namelessentity]

I have the opposite experience. I love my c750 have run every size envelope even bleeding 10x13 by lying to it. Its far better than a riso I have or the 2 OKI models I've used in the past. Controlling the curl of the envelopes before they are loaded is key, precurl all 4 corners away from the image side, I get very few jams.

A .25 inch bounce in the run -- NEVER. I have to ask if you are defining the paper correctly or just load and run?

I am blessed with good techs here.

.25" on a long sheet (30"). It usually only bounces about 2mm max on 12x18, which is still pretty unacceptable to me, but I know it's within spec.
To be fair, we're using the bypass tray because almost all our jobs are on 100+ cover, so I can't run anything from the basic trays. If you got a high capacity tray the registration might be better, but the bypass tray doesn't do a good job.

 

[mojoprime]

yeah, the bypass tray on our v80 is crap too. i pulled something off of it just a minute ago and it look like it was skewed almost 1/4". i couldn't believe it. i cribbed this little screw on part that the techs gave us to stop the same thing from happening on our 700 -- it's supposed to keep the tray from moving -- but it bounces all over the place. i can watch it moving. i can stand there and hold it and it does ok but if i push too hard it starts jamming. same thing out of OHCF is "almost" square -- let's put it like this: it's within spec.

 

[bill kahny]

I never use the bypass most of my envelopes feed from the large capacity extended tray. Hand feeding envelopes on the bypass would be a nightmare don't do it.

 

[pippip]

yeah, the bypass tray on our v80 is crap too. i pulled something off of it just a minute ago and it look like it was skewed almost 1/4". i couldn't believe it. i cribbed this little screw on part that the techs gave us to stop the same thing from happening on our 700 -- it's supposed to keep the tray from moving -- but it bounces all over the place. i can watch it moving. i can stand there and hold it and it does ok but if i push too hard it starts jamming. same thing out of OHCF is "almost" square -- let's put it like this: it's within spec.

That doesn't seem right to me. We have a V80 and I don't get any variance between bypass and OHCF when comparing same jobs off both, both extremely good.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

That doesn't seem right to me. We have a V80 and I don't get any variance between bypass and OHCF when comparing same jobs off both, both extremely good.

Yeah, I don't have any issues with my V180's bypass tray. The J75's was pretty trash in terms of guiding the paper before it left the tray, but it was solved by just never using the bypass tray, except for envelopes which you had to monitor closely either way, so I just lightly held the guides in place.The OHCF should be incredibly tight for registration, skew and perpendicularity - sounds like a user error or bad profiles.

 

[mojoprime]

That doesn't seem right to me. We have a V80 and I don't get any variance between bypass and OHCF when comparing same jobs off both, both extremely good.

i know. it's bizarre but true. i can watch the guides moving as the paper is pulled through. The techs have worked on it before, but...

 

[jwheeler]

so, the reps came back with the 3070 and the 750 as comparable to the v180. i'm curious to see the quotes and how the extras add up.

I'd be careful with the Canon C750 as nameless said, especially if you do a decent volume and regularly run heavy stock. While just about every other press in this category (Xerox V180, Konica Minolta C3080, Ricoh C7200) is supporting 350/360gsm duplex, the Canon is still back at 300gsm. Even if you don't plan on going over 300gsm, you want a press that is rated well beyond so you're not maxing it out all the time. Additionally, the KM C3080 and Ricoh C7200 both offer vacuum feeding while the Canon only has friction feed options.

 

[printing656]

They are correct on the Canon registration problems. Front to back, the machine will be dead on for a couple hundred, then it starts bouncing around getting worse and worse until it's off about 3mm. Stop the job, move the image with CW, then the job will run pretty good until the end. Issue occurs on Heavy and Coated 12x18 stocks. Some shops simply only run single sided at a time, then obviously there's no back side to bounce around. I have nearly a dozen of these machines, happens on all of them. I've heard the same from other print shops, so I do not recommend any Canon for a typical print shop.
It's a known issue by Canon but they are refusing to fix it like every other issue that is brought to their attention. Let me rephrase that, they're solution as stated by escalated Canon support techs themselves, "change the documentation" to no longer state 2mm tolerances.

 

[printing656]

Jwheeler is slightly incorrect regarding the feeding. You can add the POD decks which will give you air feeding. It's only the engine drawers that have to be friction feed-and by the way, all engine drawers do not have any double detect sensors.
They are also releasing a new model, but I haven't seen much about it other than it's a whopping 5ppm faster: