Virtualizing prepress department, and monitor recommendation

[disbellj]

Hello all,

Well, my Mac at work finally died. Lasted 10 years.

Got a new Mac Pro 8 core that I'm planning on virtualizing the main prepress system from the old machine or installing Snow Leopard in virtualization (more likely) and installing from scratch Adobe and Quark), and then doing the same for Windows. This way, if my machine fails at any point, dongles can be moved to other backup machine of the same type, one image for each machine can be pulled from backup drive to backup machine, Parallels installed, opened, and all systems launched within an hour of first machine going down.

I created this in my mind years ago, but the Mac just kept going, so my boss never would approve a new one. He got one yesterday.

I was wondering if anyone has done this, if they can give their experience. Also, if he didn't get a 30-inch ACD, and monitor recommendations would be welcome for best soft-proofing to ISO standards (GRACoL 7, ISOuncoated, etc.)

Regards, and thank you,

Don

 

[Lynn Garretson]

Looking forward to responses to this one!


Lynn, the Neewbie

 

[Banditto1]

A Mac Pro 8 -- major jealousy. I am still pedaling the 7 year old PC which makes more noise than a washing machine. What is your end producer, digital (i.e. NewPress),or offse?

 

[disbellj]

Offset is the end result. Have planned for years for this. Didn't sleep at all last night (well, because of this and the work in another endeavor finally coming to fruition after two years intense study - like a doctorate crammed into 2 years and then simplified to the extreme).

After all that, the Mac won't be here right away. Oh well, got the plan in place to implement my vision. I believe getting USB Anywhere should get us away from hardware dependencies totally (well as much as you can having to use dongles, which our old software which still works uses).

Just was wondering if someone else has done this yet and could share their experience. The goal for me is to virtualize not only the Windows machines in the prepress room, but also the Mac machines. So if one goes down, all systems in the room can be copied from backup drive, opened in parallels on the backup machine (which I hope they also ordered but don't know), and basically have no need for IT (not that I've had a need, but the rest of the building has, and I'm trying to show them how much cheaper Macs are to own than PC's that just run Windows and needs IT support which must be taken into account when figuring ROI but sadly doesn't look to be by the majority of businesses).

Regards,

Don

 

[Banditto1]

We share all of our jobs as well as fonts on a RAID server -- now admittedly, we are a complete PC shop, so probably easier to network one format. My co-worker can go into any my job folders and do corrections in my absence. We backup to two 1TB hard drives that are kept in two opposite ends of the company (one is in the network saferoom) night. Probably wouldn't be any help if a Texas tornado can through town though. We considering backing online, but it is costly. We do burn to DVD and store them off site. I worked for a label comppany who backed to data tape, and we started losing tapes because we were having to access the tapes constantly. It was a nightmare - imagine four 80 gig tapes (compressed) and the average label is only about 80K.

 

[Shawn]

Hi Don

I've been running the windows workstations in our prepress department virtualized on Mac Pros for a while now. It works great, better than some of our older Dell's running Windows directly. We tried out both Parallels and VMWare and liked VMWare slightly better (Parallels was a little faster, but more buggier). Both worked acceptably well, though. Each has a tool that lets you copy a physical PC into a virtual machine. We also have several of our workflow servers virtualized on a separate windows box.

Make sure that you load up on memory. The virtualized machines will be taking up some of your system memory so you'll need a bit more if you're planning on running both at once. I'd suggest at least 6 - 8 GB of RAM.

You also have to remember that only one machine can access the CD drive or a USB device at once. So if you put a disk in and it doesn't show up on the desktop you're working on, it could be on a different VM. The Anywhere USB box should work for your hardware keys fine, we use it on some of our servers here.

I haven't virtualized any of the Macs. I believe that Apple licensing doesn't allow you to virtualize a stock OS X install, only OS X server. So Parallels and VMWare don't build the option to virtualize standard OS X into their VMs to avoid legal entanglements with Apple. If you have a copy of OS X Server you could virtualize that in the stock VMWare or in Parallels Server and then run standard DTP programs in it. Probably overkill, though, cost wise.

Of course there are those who have hacked a standard OS X to work. It requires some terminal voodoo and a willingness to disregard the EULA...
rectalogic: Virtualizing Mac OS X Leopard Client
Mac | VMHero
Mac OSx86 » Hack VMWare Fusion 2 – Virtualize Tiger/Leopard

One option instead of making a VM, if you're looking for a quick disaster recovery in the Mac Pro, just put in a second hard drive and set it to be a time machine backup. It works well on a local drive (as opposed to an over the network backup) and is pretty quick to recover. You could also use a tool like Carbon Copy Cloner or Super Duper to schedule a regular backup to a separate partition on the second drive to have an instant switchover if the main drive fails.

On the monitor front, I'm using a Dell 2408WFP thats worked well. I do have to let it warm up completely to get good color, that goes for any monitor, but this one seems to need warm up time more than most. We have a mix of (matte) Apple 30", Apple 24" and a few Dells, and the 2408 I have is comparable to the Apple Cinema 24. Unfortunately I believe that Dell sometimes mixes panel suppliers in the middle of a model line. We have two different 2007WFPs that were bought at the same time that have completely different responses to calibration. One works very well and the other isn't suitable.

Look for something that uses a better quality panel (IPS or PVA) and avoid TN based panels at all costs if you want truly accurate color. Unfortunately most cheap panels today are TN based, which limits viewing angle and number of colors that can be reproduced. This site tries to keep track of the different panels used in various monitors <http://www.flatpanelshd.com/panels.php>.

I tried using a 30" and a 24" for prepress work and found that the 30" was almost too big. 24" seems like a better size, but that's partly personal preference. Our imposition stations use a 30 while our standard design stations use a 24 or 20.

Let me know how things work out.
Shawn

 

[disbellj]

Shawn,

Thank you for your response.

I got the 30" ACD. It's HUGE!

If I would have knew it was going to be SO big, I would have chosen the next smaller size.

Problem now is:
As you stated, Parallels doesn't allow you to install Mac into VM unless it's a server version. That sucks, and totally has screwed up what I wanted to do (unless I go and buy a server version of both Tiger and Leopard or Snow Leopard, since CS3, Quark 6 and 7 can be run on Tiger, but I don't think any of them are supported on Leopard or Snow Leopard. Which begs the question: Must I now buy a cheap old Mac off ebay after spending so much money on the new machine, just so I can run older applications, because of friggin' politics?

Seeing my problem, you damn straight I don't mind disregarding the EULA. The EULA disregards practical sense and what I must do on my job, which is run each job I get in the version of the program that it was created in. And I can't now because Apple doesn't want to play nice (what does it hurt virtualizing Mac Tiger so I can run Rosetta and my old apps I use now?). When they have the ability (which NEXT had for years) of running on multiple architectures, where really I know there has to be a way to even run ALL operating systems ever made, we are made to upgrade even when it's not practical, since my CAREER mandates I MUST continue to use old software even while I do also use new software.

So now I got a box I can run Windows (any of them), on my Mac, but can't run different Mac operating systems on my Mac. How ass-backwards and absurd is that!?!

Great. Now I have a Mac I can run Quark 8 and Creative Suite 4, the least-used software I have. ANd I can check email and surf the web, and with a huge screen I can watch a movie and it look better than when I watch it at home (although the wimpy sound kind of sucks compared to my home sound system).

What about the older software like Quark 6, 7, CS3? They don't care and I must find a way to deal with it. Again, how absurd. No wonder I decided to start education on a new career. This is the type of stuff that makes you want to flip the finger at Apple. I'm glad I sold my stock I had (thank God I never lost money in AAPL), and will never own it again, even though I've used Macs for now over 16 years. The decisions they make seem to screw me even without the courtesy of a reach-around.

Regards,

Don

 

[Shawn]

Hi Don

You should be able to run all your older Quark and CS versions on the new machine. There might be a few minor glitches here and there, but they will run for normal production tasks.

I haven't gone to Snow Leopard on my production machine, but I've run everything you mentioned on Leopard fine. In my (limited) 10.6 tests everything worked except FreeHand MX and I believe that they've found a workaround for that. I did also run into a few Java issues related to some of our Prinergy and Insite software, but there are workaround for that too. There were a few font issues with Type 1 fonts that just got solved with the 10.6.2 update so make sure to run Software Update on it right away.

I've wondered about Apple's refusal to allow virtualization as well. It's ironic that the best way to run some older software on an Intel Mac is to switch to the Windows version and use VMWare or Crossover. "Think Different" indeed.

I have set up older OS9 software to run under Sheepshaver so I can load Quark 5 or PageMaker jobs. It's flaky, but has worked for a few jobs.
E-Maculation :: View topic - SheepShaver UB build for Mac OS X 25-10-2009 available

Good Luck, I think that you'll enjoy the Mac Pro once you get it set up. It's a really nice machine--licensing politics and OS issues aside--the hardware design is some of the best I've ever seen.

Shawn

 

[disbellj]

Shawn,

Once again I HIGHLY appreciate your reply.

OK, so I will go ahead and discard my dream of total virtualization (waited 3 years and I guess I'm still ahead of the curve. Go figure. Like watching a soap opera drag out a story over years).

I will instead just go ahead and install all software I need on Leopard (unless you see that much improvement in Snow Leopard that would warrant me using it instead, in which case I'll go ahead and install Snow Leopard, update to 10.6.2, and then install all apps, realizing I will need to install Rosetta to run Quark 6.5, and also realizing I have read of activation problems with Quark 8). Thank God I have another 10-year-old G4 I can do production work on until the new Mac gets fully configured the way I want it.

Then I guess I'll do as I've done in the past and clone to 2nd internal HD.

It's a shame though that I can't legally virtualize on a machine that costs so much and the ability is really there, just "turned off".

Even after I type this, I have a hard time accepting it. I still want to fulfill my vision, and may work towards it one day again. Just not really excited on the idea of hacking software to get it to work (which is surprising since I'm prepress and finding workarounds is my line of work, or at least it used to be before things improved like they have over the last decade and a half.

Regards,

Don

 

[Shawn]

Hi Don

I wouldn't go to Snow Leopard for production yet, Leopard is a little more robust and safer for now. The only reason I mentioned it was that the new Macs ship with SL. If you were using one of the new iMacs or MacBooks that were announced after SL came out you'd have a problem, but even the latest MacPro will run Leopard fine.

Shawn

 

[disbellj]

Shawn,

I'm told by Parallels Desktop that I must have server version of Mac OS to virtualize my Mac OS. So I have asked my boss to buy Snow Leopard Server, and I have went back to my original plan to get all my machines off of their hardware dependency. This way, instead of having a backup attached to my machine, I can have the backup of the Mac OS to be one file I can backup to an external FireWire drive, and this external FireWire drive can itself be cloned on a schedule. Then the 2nd external FireWire can be put in a safe and brought out on a schedule to sync with 1st external drive.

I know there are those that would say it's overkill. To me, it's the best way forward, seeing as with each new version of software, it's married to an OS (to where it's meant to run on that OS only, and is not supported on later OS upgrades). This way, going forward, I can run production OS's on the same machine as OS's that are testing. Once done testing, if passed, the VM will be kept. If failed, the VM will be tossed. But my production doesn't suffer.

See, I think as if I did work in a large operation, although the reality is I don't.
I'm taking the leap because:
1. My main machine died, so perfect opportunity.
2. Supposedly with Snow Leopard 10.6.2, the type wrap got fixed.

So I guess I will install all previous and current apps I use into this Snow Leopard Server VM, running in Parallels, running on Snow Leopard Server. Seems overkill for now sure, but moving forward, I'd rather be able to run my applications in the environment they were intended, and this can't happen if things keep changing and I'm not virtualized (unless I just want to keep adding a physical machine with new OS when software requires, while keeping the old physical machines too. I don't want to keep doing this. I'd rather have a master machine that I can run all software I need to, with each OS with its apps backed up to one file - preferences, apps, environment, everything just as it has run in the past - that can be run on a new machine if need be by simply installing Parallels on the new machine and dragging the Vm from the backup drive).

Regards,

Don

 

[Shawn]

Hi Don

You might want to see if you qualify for an evaluation copy of Snow Leopard Server. I'm not sure if they're still offering it, but it's free, so it can't hurt to try.
Mac OS X Server Evaluation

Keep in mind that if you want to virtualize earlier versions of the OS, you'd need the server version of 10.5 or 10.4 to run in the VM.

Good Luck
Shawn

 

[disbellj]

Shawn,

I don't know what I would have done without your recommendations. Thank you.

I've decided to go ahead and install all apps into Leopard (not server) that came installed on new machine. And then use Time Machine to back it up.

Then in 2-3 weeks when the evaluation version comes via FedEx, I'll install it and do some testing. If it doesn't work out, I can then revert back in time using Time Machine to the fully working Leopard install that has Parallels and all Windows machines virtualized. Edit: Actually after thinking about this again, Parallels never said the Host had to be Server OS, just the Client. So if the evaluation of Snow Leopard Server running inside Parallels running on Leopard doesn't work out, I'd just throw away the virtual machine.

Thank you again. My emotions sometimes get the best of me, I get upset or change my mind, but I do want to do the best I can, and your input was a lone voice of help for me in this time.

Edit: After doing calubration on my new monitor today, I can see another reason why I was in a bad mood yesterday. The brightness killed my eyes and gave me a headache yesterday until I decided to calibrate and profile using Eye-One Display 2 and i1Match 3.6.3. Now it's MUCH better and tolerable. Not only is it HUGH, it's BRIGHT (or was).

Regards,

Don

 

[disbellj]

Banditto1,

I don't want you to think I was ignoring you.

We have all jobs backed up on server. No problems there.

This discussion was really about the applications/programs and the OS they should be run on (the OS they are made for), and using virtualization to be able to accomplish that not just for now, but into the future, so problems aren't met in the future trying to run software on an OS that it's not intended to run on, which can cause unforseeable problems.

Regards,

Don

 

[mattbeals]

Don, you are wanting to be able to clone a workstation onto another "blank" box if you main one dies right? Virtualizing you workstation would be something else very different. I suggest you look at Sun Virtual Box 3 ( VirtualBox ) for Mac/Windows/Linux virtualization. Back to you question about being able to virtualize a box. I suppose one could first clone a working production box and then use Apple DiskUtility to create a bootable image. Then use Virtualbox or Parallels to create a virtual computer using that disk image. But that sounds more work than it's worth. For me, if a box goes down and you have a working disk image I would just re-image the dead box and go from there. Re-imaging over firewire doesn't take too long now a days.

 

[disbellj]

Matt,

I'm talking about virtualizing at least 4 Windows and 1 (maybe 2) Mac machines. The virtual machines (VMs) would be run and backed up on a scheduled basis (must be able to be one file or folder of files that can be easily just copied from the external backup drive and ran on Parallels on new Mac with nothing else installed if need be).

So removing hardware dependency, and like many IT today, virtualizing and running many machines on one physical machine.

Backup should be a breeze (image file or folder of files). Restore should be a breeze (copy of Parallels and a Mac capable of running the machines, and however long it takes to copy from the backup drive to the backup machine).

I could run even on my personal Macbook Pro, which I do use virtualization on it already and have for awhile with good results (and the new Mac 8 core is much more powerful than the Macbook Pro I have, so I have no doubts it can be the powerhouse I envision).

The physical machine goes down. Have a backup physical machine that can run the VMs? Many machines back up and running in less than an hour. In short: Not locked to the specific hardware, which can go down at any time, but hardware-independent (except since I choose to work with mainly Mac, and choose to virtualize Mac, it takes it being a Mac as the host machine. But if Apple or Microsoft either one ever do go under, I'll already have all I need virtualized and hardware independent, and there will be ways to run what I need to, one way or another. For now, I'll do everything legit as possible.

But if I'm ever forced to survive and be able to use files or programs that are "no longer supported" (not theory, has happened to me once already), then I guess I'm thinking of disaster recovery in more than one way. After all, haven't we seen companies fail and customers left wondering what they are going to do, when support is gone, when dongles fail, etc.? What then?

Even though they've paid for years for support, and paid for the program, which works fine (unless hardware dependencies stop it from working)?

I'd rather think of all this ahead of time and be ready as much as I can be if that time comes. Because to have a program stop working and not have anyone to contact that can or will help you without you buying something else even though you've already more than fairly paid, it's basically unacceptable to me. To be "forced" to upgrade. I guess I consider it a way to stop having to pay for hardware every time the company has to purchase a piece of software (need a rip? Got to buy hardware. Need a proofing rip? Got to buy hardware. Need a scanner? Got to buy extra computer. Need a platesetter? Got to buy separate hardware. See, we buy hardware for everything when I have proven to myself and through experience that I only need one machine to do it all these days). We can run it no problem in virtual environment. We don't need to buy all that hardware. See what I mean? Who should be in control of the software you paid for to use unlimited?

And you shouldn't ever be stuck up Sh*t Creek when you have the choice of thinking about it ahead of time and preparing as much as possible, right?

Regards,

Don

 

[mattbeals]

That's all well and fine, it could work. My point is don't over think the solution. Keep it simple; a good recent disc image on a FireWire drive and a bootable drive is simple, effective and reliable. You can get a junior secretary to restore the drive very easily if need be while you work on jobs. With Windows you're still going to be tied to specific hardware for device drivers even in a virtualized environment. Although Windows is a bit more tolerant of moving drives around to new computers. Virtualization is a great buzz word, and technology where appropriate. For this, a good recent disc image and a bootable hard drive/dvd is the least complicated and most efficient way to restore a computer. At some point you still have to restore the dead computer. So just do it at the front end and don't worry about coming back to restoring it later. Do it once and it's done. Neat, clean, simple, effective.

 

[disbellj]

Matt,

Sorry if I sounded rude earlier. Totally not intended.

What do you think is the best program for cloning to make a bootable backup, and is this program also the best at imaging, so that I could make a recommendation? You see, I hate Windows. I work with it because I have to.

My modus operandi has been to find a program that makes things that are difficult to be easy. If not, then I come up with a workaround if I can. Since I haven't looked in a while, and I know you have been in-the-know on these things, do you mind giving a recommendation?

I've heard of Ghost, TrueImage, I've used Drive Snapshot. But each one costs a lot to back up these "servers" (it seems every computer we're sold is a server). So I figure that running them in virtualization is going to be permanent, and there's no reason to fix existing machines when they die, nor buy new machines just because I buy a new rip or other software. You can see a whole lot in 30" of screen real estate and handle a lot with 8 cores and 6 GB of RAM for starters (with crucial.com easy to access if any more is needed).

I figure these servers work fine in every instance I've used them in virtualization, even going so far as running every one of them at the same time on my personal Macbook Pro and verifying them working properly (although a little slowly when all running at once). Although such a configuration never seems to be "supported", I have yet to see an instance where virtualization failed, except for one, and that's the computer that is physically connected to the platesetter (and actually I successfully virtualized that one, but the hardware dependency caused by the large plug, cord, and special motherboard that is not replaceable is something that makes me think that's one situation I would rather not get into, but the rest I can handle easily if using the right solutions).

Regards,

Don

 

[disbellj]

OK. Here's the update:

Installed Parallels 5 and used Transporter to migrate full computers into virtual machines. Nice.

Then I had problems with the configuration that Parallels does. Things learned:
1. Update Windows using Windows Update, to get all updates installed BEFORE moving over physical machine to VM.
2. Update Parallels to the latest update (I had 5, but not the latest update at first).
3. If any physical computer you are moving into a VM also has a VM running in it, migrate the VM running in the physical computer first via Transporter (drag VM over to Mac, and use Transporter on the VM when not started). Then make sure it's working and VM is backed up. Then kill VM (now in a Parallels VM) on physical machine. Finally use Transporter on physical machine. So now you have two Parallels VMs - from a physical computer (that became one Parallels VM) that ran a VMware VM (that became another Parallels VM).

If I would have done these things in this order, I wouldn't have had a problem at all I don't think.

Also used Bridged networking for all VMs so that I didn't have to change any hotfolders, etc. at this point. If I see that I can do it better by changing in future, I will be able to do it no problem now that all Windows are in VMs.

Regards,

Don

 

[jschrieber]

Hey Don,

"I believe getting USB Anywhere should get us away from hardware dependencies totally (well as much as you can having to use dongles, which our old software which still works uses)."

We've been in the virtual world here for quite a few years (started with Microsoft's version) and have been using a VMWare farm for the last couple of years .... I think about 30 or so virtual servers, plus the DataCenter Edition of MS Windows Server 2003 so adding doesn't involve additional expenditures for OS.

It's all Windows and a few Linux, so can't help you much on the Mac front .... however, we do use a few USB Anywhere boxes for dongles and the only drawback is the boxes are 4 port but only one server can be connected to a box at a time .... therefore for 3 different apps with USB dongles running on 3 separate servers, you need to spend the 200 or 300 bucks for a box for each one.

A big frustrating, but need something to complain about, I guess.

Love the virtual world, incidentally .... was very skeptical at first, but I'm a believer now. Good luck with yours.

jack