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What happened to training rant?

plz it is poor to rate ppl because they don't write the way you would. Listen to what they say. If it was an english language forum fine, but there is no correlation between spelling, grammar or technical expertise. I did appreciate UberTechs first post, the hit on zen is just plain rude. Mind you zen could be a tad more polite too.
 
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plz it is poor to rate ppl because they don't write the way you would. Listen to what they say. If it was an english language forum fine, but there is no correlation between spelling, grammar or technical expertise.

I think that it is particularly important to write as clearly as possible precisely because it is an international forum. It is difficult enough for non-English readers to understand what is posted without the extra difficulty of dealing with lazy, sloppy writing using truncated words while eliminating all punctuation. I cannot listen to what is being said because it's impossible to understand it.
The issue is not about writing the way I would. It is about respecting the audience and trying to communicate as clearly as possible with that audience. Otherwise there is no need to post at all.
I happen to think that but there is a correlation between spelling, grammar and technical expertise. If your doctor wrote to you using the same language you might have some legitimate concerns about the doctor's competency. I know I would.

FL
 
@fiatlux I am not saying that one should deliberately be sloppy or unclear, but there is a serious missunderstanding that gramatical correctness implies that the thought conveyed is correct. The most blatent lies are padded in verbal eloquense. That comments on linguistics are used as arguments I find so provocative. I too struggle with the written word, often retyping because in an industry with professional proofreaders one is very exposed as the whole office will gather round and snigger if your letters are not in the right order. I took my refuge from the critizizm of those language teachers in art, and later found I had a nack for technical issues. Did that make me a better speller? No. Does it still hurt when language is used as an argument for intelegence?

I do not have demands on a doctor, to be able to spell (though from what I hear medical staff is bogged down with too much paper work). I know many people who can spell but are totally lost in technical areas. I know many people who struggle with language (to the extent they would never actually post on a forum) who are technical experts. I am not saying linguistic limitation is something that will enhance techical skill.

But letts go back to what the thread is about. Training. And here is the key. To know how something works is not the same thing as to train someone how to use it. There is a need for a group of people who can train. CompTia did have a programme called CTT+, where the curriculum did just that, it taught technical people how to communicate their expertise.

This is where I think the jist of this thread is. Where it has been expressed that for the person who knows what he wants the "trainer" or is it the "technical expert" will give him that information. Now that is basically saying "if you know what you want to know we'll tell you". That is not training!

At the time of installation a training needs assesment could be made, and an appropriate curriculum designed. But there is no such curriculum. It could be a very modular course, where one would be able to go back to it over time and grow in knowledge studying what is relevant, much like an online learning centre. X-rite did this with some very good online courses when you bought a spectrophotometer.

And this is why the user forums are so useful. The user, is a person just like yourself. They feel your pain. They are not trying to sell you anything, nor do they have to pretend something that doesn't work is good, because they sold it to you.

KM seems to be listening in this forum, but I myself have been to a site where a client has had a KM but the technician did not have any understanding of colour management, and so had left that client with an unsatisfactory installation. Among the disks they had left were unopened calibration software and charts. All paid for, because thay were necessary in the package to get the desired results... but there was not the know how to implement it (I did not verify the linguistic skills of the technical expert, so I am missing the data to see if he was competent ;P ). Please don't think I am pointing fingers at any particular vendor. It is a problem as expressed in this post, of training not reaching the end user so that an investment will attain its maximum potential, and a bafflement that the manufacturers do not rank higher the value of offering adequate training to those users.

(please don't judge me on account of spelling or grammar)
 
@ Lukas,

Well written, articulate, and a great contribution. And that's the difference.

J
 
Craig,

Having come from over 15 years in providing in-field training and now 2-years in the print industry I can say that there are a couple issues at work here.

The first is one of competence - few equipment sales companies actually have the in house experience to train you on how to use the equipment in a real-world environment. Oh, they will tell you their technicians went through a 4-hour train-the-trainer class, but all they know is how to push the buttons for the most obvious features and common work. And after 30-days they can't remember that.

The second issue is one of money - when you drop $60k+ on a color machine you expect to be taught how to use it. No vendor wants to loose a bid because they added in $5k for on site training by a competent, experienced teacher. Hence, you end up stuck with a technician (or worse - a salesman!) sent through a train-the-trainer class (see first problem listed above).

Finally, it's one of timing - even if you get the smartest, most competent, experienced, consultant there to train your team no one has used the machine long enough to know what they need it to do. Or what problems they might have. Or special one-off issues. So, the consultant brain dumps as much as they can in the 2-3 days they have and you're people forget it 24hrs later because they're still trying to find the "On" button and figure out how to load the paper correctly.

3rd party training and consulting is out there. The unfortunate problem is 9as with any industry) finding someone who actually know what they're doing, and can teach your people how to do it themselves (rather than do it for them).

Mark H
 
Mark,
I agree totally with what you said.... but I spent $300,000.00 and still get half answered questions from the "specialist" who's only confident answer I have received in 2+ years is "Call the Hot Line". I'm at the point that I don't even call the so called "specialist", it's a waste of a long distance phone call!
 
when I have a question he never follows threw or I get some half assed answer.

This!

Me: There are some weird lines showing up in this art when I print using a Freeform Master. It's messing up my image, before I even print it.. you can tell it's messed up. You can actually see it in SeeQuence. Do you know what would cause that? It looks fine, until you apply the master. Very strange.

Tech: What do you mean by sequence? How are you sending it to the machine? Did it come from InDesign. There's a known bug in InDesign.

Me: Uh.. See..Quence.. It allows you to preview the image before you print. Do you really not know what that is?

Tech: Well, I never have to use it.
Anyway, it's probably just your file. You know, InDesign causes a lot of problems because it tries to control the colour and override the machine's settings.

Me: !@#$

I don't bother calling them anymore unless it's jammed up or time for a pm.
Two. More. Years.
 
Trianing rant.

Trianing rant.

Don't forget people, These companies are geared to make a profit. Investors want to know how much profit was made, not how many customers were satisfied. Hire as cheaply as you can, do it as fast as you can, and call it word class. Tell the lie long enough and people will start believing it.
 
Hhhmmmm. This thread has a lot of view points. On one hand, it would be nice to know what button x does after spending tens of thousands of dollars (no where near as much as Craig) with the machine supplier; but on the other hand, I can understand the costs associated with training. Although, some of the replies on this thread are more geared toward repair and not training. I think there is a difference there. But, come to think of it, when you buy a car, they don't teach you how to drive it or repair it. Maybe these machine manufacturers should do what the government does- when you want fight computer hackers, you hire a computer hacker. If Xerox, Canon or Konica Minolta want to show you how to operate their machine, they should hire someone that has operated the machine.
 
If Xerox, Canon or Konica Minolta want to show you how to operate their machine, they should hire someone that has operated the machine.

While these manufacturers build machines that print, they are not printers. I would not expect them to teach me how to operate their machines to create my output any more than I would expect Toyota to teach me how to drive the truck I bought.

That being said, there are plenty of general drivers-ed, offroad experience, and performance driving schools out there. Where are all the courses/classes/seminars on running printing equipment? I'm not talking a 60-minute fluff piece at a trade show. I mean, let's roll up our sleeves and push some ink...

Mark H
 
While these manufacturers build machines that print, they are not printers. I would not expect them to teach me how to operate their machines to create my output any more than I would expect Toyota to teach me how to drive the truck I bought.

I said that right here-

"But, come to think of it, when you buy a car, they don't teach you how to drive it or repair it."

You could have included that when you quoted me. Your specific comparison is very good and a little more detailed than mine. But another comparison you could make (to see the flip side of things) Buying a digital press without training is a little like buying a piece of electronics without the instruction manual.
 
I'm not talking about how to print, I'm talking about the FEATURES of the piece of equipment.

I have adjustments on the OIT for custom paper settings. No where in the manuals does it say definitively that by adjusting this number you will get this result. You only get a vague at best synopses of what it's suppose to do. Forget about calling someone, they didn't even know the adjustment existed, yet it's their machine!

Now when I buy my new Toyota you can bet your ass the dealer will give me a thorough walk through on the FEATURES of that vehicle and be able to answer any question I may have.
 
Just a quick note, I'm a bit pressed for time so I'll edit it later :)

I'm a trainer for Xerox, and the branch I work for certainly offers training but it's a two way street.

We allocate a day or two for training, sometimes more depending on the machine, but in a lot of cases the customer will only give us a couple of hours to train in.
In other cases they have inexperienced operators so the basics are covered so they can at least use the machine without overloading an inexperienced operator with information about things they don't want to know about.
In the vast majority of cases when training, the operator(s) being trained are called away for anywhere from 10 minutes to 2 hours to attend to other things during the time allocated for training.

I think UberTech's post sums it up nicely, have dedicated operators, allow sufficient time for training, know how to use a computer as a prerequisite for training.

Gotta go, back later to clean it up :)
 
I've run into this several times with training. If you're paying me, or anyone else, to come in and train/setup/install a piece of technology you have to block off the time for at least one person so that they can dedicate their time and attention to learning. Otherwise the company is pissing away money and won't fully realize the benefits of the technology.

In a similar vein, I had a client fly me out for a week of installation. He was "too busy" to get the training so he said "just make it do what I want". Well, he never could get nailed down long enough to tell me what he wanted or get me the information I needed to build what I thought he neede. I left early... It was a complete waste of my time. There really wasn't any point in me being there at all. It's a shame to have pissed away the time and effort because he was "too busy" to focus on the project he was supposed to be focusing on.
 
I have created a book that has examples of print defects and the settings to change on the engine to 'solve' the image defect..........

Uber can you send me the book or have a link I can download from. We're frequently having issues on our 6501's, it'd be great to have a reference guide to help diagnose problems.
 
UberTech - I would also like a copy of this book.

SteveL - I would have LOVED to had two days training on our machine. They just kind of came in and said, "You already know how to use CWS." Then, I was shown a couple other things, but mostly just left to it. And honestly, in the beginning, that was fine. It was when things like the machine's apparent inability to print a decent gradient came into play that I became annoyed. It was all downhill from there. I tried to read the manual, but it's how to adjust settings in broken English.. not why you might need to adjust the settings. THAT's what I need to know. Our techs are very hit or miss in that regard.
Example:
When I was having issues with the image shifting I came here for answers.
I then told our tech about the "Align Tray" setting in CWS and how it solved most of our issues. Their response was, "Oh, yeah. That's good to do.. sometimes the trays get out of alignment."
Sooo.. why, then, did you not bring it up when you came out on a call to see why the machine was moving the image? You cleaned some rollers, blamed InDesign, and left.

@#$%

This is just as much our fault as theirs, though. We never should have gone with this machine, knowing so little about it. We were under the impression they knew loads about it. Should have known better, since they weren't the ones that made it.
Ah, well...We've definitely learned a lot from this experience, so.. at least there's that.
 

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