What would you buy

[PantherMac]

OK, obviously a loaded question, and there's a million if's...

But we've been toying w/ the digital print thing for a spell, put a cheap Xerox Workcenter thing on the floor 6 months ago.... and it's been as expected.

Customer #1 just banged us w/ a whole bunch of stuff, all looks like a good candidate for digital print due to the variability they want (various substrates, too... stickers, labels, letterhead, envelopes, magnets, etc., you name it... they want VD printed on it)...

So lets assume we have the volume needed in this account, to look at one of the big guns (iGen, Nexpress, etc.)... We'll likely go w/ one of the click-contracts, as that's what we've done on the Xerox we have, and it's gone well.... We'll also likely move some small-format press work onto this machine as well (why we're shooting for a big-one).

What would you buy and why?

Thanks.

- Mac

 

[Craig]

I would buy what I own now, a Xerox Docucolor 8000AP. Here's why after 600,000 prints.

1 - Color consistency has been less than 2 delta E from first to last sheet and on re-prints.
2 - In All Weights mode it is almost as productive as an iGen/Nexpress at 1200 duplexed 12x18 iph.
3 - For the cost of an iGen/Nexpress I can almost get 2 DC8000AP's.
4 - No need to have our facility changed or upgraded for the additional requirements of an iGen/Nexpress.
5 - Many OCR's to keep the press running instead of waiting on a tech.
6 - The press does not require the operator to do as much maintenance as an iGen/Nexpress.
7 - The ability to run many substrates.
8 - The service and support from Xerox has been excellent since our December 07 install.
9 - Registration front to back has been within 0.5mm.
10 - It has made MONEY since it's install!

In regards to the letterhead/envelope comment.... forget it digitally. Unless the client will NEVER run the letterhead through another fuser device it will not work consistently. Same with envelopes, unless you print the sheet and have them converted, but the VDP will go out the door when one gets messed up on the conversion.

 

[PantherMac]

Thanks Craig! That's great to hear. We have a Workcenter 7345 (half assed digitial copier), and it hasn't proven to be the greatest production machine (will bang out letter sized prints, but the other stuff you mention it's not the best at). The Salesrep at that distributor will be interested to hear we might want to upgrade! LOL!

- Mac

 

[X33]

Wc7345?

Wc7345?

the WorkCentre 7345 is far from being considered a "production" solution, no wonder it can only print 8.5x11 ... it's an Office Color machine.

check out www.xerox.com/production

 

[random]

Craig,

Do use dE76 or 94 to calculate your drift?

Cheers,

Random

 

[TWinqvist]

Okay

I was the one who choosed the NexPress, but I also have experiens with other digital color presses like Indigo TurboStream, Océ CPS800 and NexPress M700. Markets in Finland are limited because our populity is only 5 million and we have a lot of competition in graphicarts business. So if you are a small printer go for M700.

On the otherhand I still think that Indigo was the only real digital color press and still is. There is lot of maintanence that you have to do to keep the Indigo running with good quality. HP has done very good job developing new solutions to ink transfer and other new features. But how "green" is the ink that Indigo uses?

Océ is good at only in one thing and it's that it prints with good quality to a textured papers.

I operated M700 for one month and I was impressed how easy it is to operate with NexStation front end, there is so much different options that you can do to a job. Imposing, image shift, paper handling, manage the print quality depending the substrate that you are using. NexPert solution is showing you how to change the ORC's in the press to minimize the downtime and what part you have to order. I think the printquality is the best I've seen on any of the presses that I've worked with.

All the digital presses have their up- and downsides, you just have to make decition based on what kind of products you're printing. There is also other new very interesting digital presses on the market that I saw at Drupa Meteor DP60 Pro from MGI and B2 format QPRESS from Jadason Enterprises .

 

[Craig]

Random, we started with dE76 on install but have since moved to dE94. We didn't notice a huge difference, about .5 to 1 dE with the change.

TWinqvist, Good post, if I had to make a decision and had an unlimited budget and floor space I'd go with the NexPress 3000 with the fifth color unit and NexGlosser!! I have seen some real cool looking stuff from that combo on a 2500.

 

[PantherMac]

Hi Craig,

Going to see a Dog-n-Pony show on the 8000 Friday... What questions would you ask if you were looking to buy? What options/add-on's would you look to?

How much floor space do you have set aside for your machine and supplies? What have you found the most troublesome? What about the FRU's?

Thanks, wanna grill the demo guy's good if we're going to be negotiating.

- Mac

 

[Craig]

Hi Craig,

Going to see a Dog-n-Pony show on the 8000 Friday... What questions would you ask if you were looking to buy? What options/add-on's would you look to?

How much floor space do you have set aside for your machine and supplies? What have you found the most troublesome? What about the FRU's?

Thanks, wanna grill the demo guy's good if we're going to be negotiating.

- Mac

Panther,

The 8000AP configured like mine with the secondary feeder and high capacity stacker will require open floor space of 11' x 24' if I recall from memory. That allows for the tech to have room to work on it from all 4 sides. Parts that you have will require 2 - 5 shelf units that are 48" wide plus room for toner, waste toner bottles fuser oil and corotrons. When delivered it was 8 pieces and 15 boxes of stuff.

FRU's are very simple and strait forward, the most difficult thing is when you change the 2nd BTB don't drop the screws they are a pain to find.

The only thing I have noticed is that we are going through fuser parts a little faster than normal, but we run 90% coated 12x18 and they are telling me that is the cause. We just had a updated oiler installed that has increased the roller life considerably. We are still averaging only 2 service calls per month, with total down time about 1 hour per call.

The only question I can think of would be to make sure you have a tech. trained on it in your area. You'll need to make a decision between a Fiery, Creo and Xerox FreeFlow. Most everything else will be self explanatory during the demo.

Have fun!

 

[cosmo]

1 - Color consistency has been less than 2 delta E from first to last sheet and on re-prints.????
really??, do you have a spectro or a xerox branded POS?, when do you measure your sheets? from 1 - 10000?

 

[cosmo]

Craig, you obviously love the xerox machine, I have only had the 5500 which I was happy with but not over the moon about, is the 8000AP a big improvment? Is the toner less shiny than before, that was really my only concern in the past with the 5500?

 

[PantherMac]

Thanks Craig, just got back...
Might be looking at the 5000, too! Oy! Demo center here in Rochester had all the models on the floor, and I know a tech won't be a problem here, either! LOL! I've gotten bodies out of Kodak's demo center to fix something before, just gotta make a lot of noise!
The application opportunities are interesting, we're seeing opportunities for a lot of cannibalism of some of our big-press work that requires a lot of finishing, too.

Do the machines really run as 'easy' and 'hands-free' as they say? We're looking at printing sections, inserting tabs through the feeder, and ending w/ finished books out the back... Just seems like a lot of opportunities for the machine to make a mistake. I know just using the duplex-and-staple features in some 'automated printers', it never works as good as in the demo.

Compared to the sales literature, in your experience, is the machine as good as they advertise? Admittedly, so far we're thinking we need 2 on our floor to keep up w/ the volume! Now we just have to find the floor space! LOL!

Thanks.

- Mac

 

[Craig]

1 - Color consistency has been less than 2 delta E from first to last sheet and on re-prints.????
really??, do you have a spectro or a xerox branded POS?, when do you measure your sheets? from 1 - 10000?

We use an EFI ES-1000 Spectrophotometer, and yes the measurement is from 1st sheet to last sheet , but we don't run 10,000 prints, that would be a qty. for an offset press. Our print ranges run from a few hundred to about 3000 sheets on average.

 

[Craig]

Craig, you obviously love the xerox machine, I have only had the 5500 which I was happy with but not over the moon about, is the 8000AP a big improvment? Is the toner less shiny than before, that was really my only concern in the past with the 5500?

I am not familiar with the 5500, but the 8000AP has 3 operating modes, Single Weight, Mixed Weights, and All Weights modes. When in All Weights mode the machine is running everything at 80/min production speed regardless of weight, which produces a more matte appearance. But you have the option to slow it down and get the "gloss" look if required.

 

[Craig]

Do the machines really run as 'easy' and 'hands-free' as they say? We're looking at printing sections, inserting tabs through the feeder, and ending w/ finished books out the back... Just seems like a lot of opportunities for the machine to make a mistake. I know just using the duplex-and-staple features in some 'automated printers', it never works as good as in the demo.

Compared to the sales literature, in your experience, is the machine as good as they advertise? Admittedly, so far we're thinking we need 2 on our floor to keep up w/ the volume! Now we just have to find the floor space! LOL!

Thanks.

- Mac

Mac,
NOTHING is as "hands free" as the salesman will lead you to believe. That being said as I am typing the 8000AP is running 2000 12x18 100lb gloss text 4/4 at 1,200 iph and all I am doing is checking proofs about every 15 min. to make sure it's looking like it should.

Is the machine as good as they advertise... Yes! The only real "fault" I can find is the delay time when switching media types, like from 100lb gloss text to 28lb text. The machine will take approx. 5 to 8 minutes to make all the internal adjustments before it prints. Unless you switch media all the time it's not a huge "problem".

I had to make the choice between the 5000 and the 8000AP last year and I'd pick the 8000AP every time, I am completely satisfied with it's overall performance and reliability. I don't think the 5000 could stand up in the long haul to pushing it's monthly duty cycle, month after month.

 

[PantherMac]

Thanks for the feedback Craig. Salesman is talking up an iGen, but I don't see us retrofitting the building to make room for it (we'll go w/ the 8000 now, and upgrade later perhaps?)

- Mac

 

[Craig]

Mac,
I had a conversation the other day with my salesman who said the iGen Tiger folks are getting a run for their money when up against the 8000AP. Unless you need the larger 14x20 sheet or the additional substrates the iGen can support, the 8000AP is nearly as productive for a lot less money and building requirements. He said they were trying to justify an iGen on 40,000/month print volume, that sounds like they are grabbing a straws.

 

[PantherMac]

Hi Craig,

Yeah, the substrate would save us from outsourcing some stuff, but.... We're in an older building, and kinda shoe-horning the 8000 in, as it is. Between the machine price and building mod's... I think we'd make a lot more money going w/ the other machine as well.
Thanks again.

- Mac

 

[PantherMac]

Well, I hear the 700 that you'll all be seeing at GraphExpo is coming to us after the show.
And I've got an inside line on one of the hardware tech's from Xerox, too! Woo Woo!
Hopefully nobody on the floor gets drunk and kicks the tires or anything, LOL!
Thanks for the input folks.

- Mac

 

[Craig]

Well, I hear the 700 that you'll all be seeing at GraphExpo is coming to us after the show.
And I've got an inside line on one of the hardware tech's from Xerox, too! Woo Woo!
Hopefully nobody on the floor gets drunk and kicks the tires or anything, LOL!
Thanks for the input folks.

- Mac

Maybe I'll draw a big on the back of it for you!