Where to start .....

[printingt]

So, our business has been around since 1947 .... letterpress all the way. Changed hands in 1985 and converted to ABDick 360 offset. Still running a couple of 9810s, with T-head on one of them. We outsource our color work, but it's getting time to consider bringing it in-house. I have no idea where to start .... Cannot afford a $$$$$$ machine, but what we need is something that can produce work that looks great, handle a variety of stocks, and produce work that looks great .... if you get my point. Our market is a steady, or more realistically a declining market, but that doesn't mean that our business has to go in that direction. So, I know things change all the time, and this has probably been discussed so many times, but how much $$$$ do we need to consider for a decent production machine? and any brands to pursue or stay away from? Any and all information much appreciated. Thank You!

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Talk to your local digital sales reps. Most people on here are loyal to Xerox as it doesn't try to add whiz bang features that don't really add any value, and focuses on making the machine user-friendly, with more user-exchangeable parts than most other manufacturers.

How many impressions do you reasonably expect to run per month? It's all about 11 x 17", 12 x 18, and 13 x 19" stocks to maximize your click cost. What stocks are you going to run? Lynx and Accent are common for your uncoated/smooth/matte and Futura, Xpri and some others are great for coated stocks. You can certainly get into Mohawk's Color Copy line, but those are pretty expensive, and don't really offer any noticeable quality increase if you're running anything less than a Xerox 1000i (someone here could probably refute this).

How much are your competitors charging for full color work? Will you be stepping into a role to offer higher quality digital, mid quality, or just slam 'em through quality? After you introduce the machine and work out the kinks, are you looking to increase volume? Do you have a creaser/folder to support the machine (scoring on a Graphic Whizard won't work)?

Also, this is a very important question. I find the most important factor for a great digital press operator is whether or not they are a technically-minded person. No offense, but many older guys I know don't know what they are doing around computers, let alone having to troubleshoot odd problems that will arise with customer files not RIP'ing properly, or minute modifications to your settings that will give the extra quality boost to the printed job. They are complex machines, and will require an above average tech nut to make the machine profitable.

I'm sure you knew all of these questions were going to come sooner or later, haha. I find this move akin to an all digital shop deciding they want to acquire a 3302 and a single color press.

 

[Keith]

I'd say the most important thing to consider is the service. The big three, Canon, Konica, and Xerox all have great machines for any budget. But it is pointless if there is no dealer nearby or their service network is weak or nonexistent in your area. The second most important thing to consider is machine specs. Does it have the specs to produce what you want to sell?

 

[aqazi81]

I would suggest you to buy a used SM52 and start producing color work.

 

[printingt]

Thank You for the replies.

I'm not even sure who serves this area.

Still curious if the 3 mentioned above produce the same level of quality, both in image and crucial things like backing up pages, etc.

Our color work ranges from postcards, to flyers, brochures, souvenir booklets up to 160 pages, running on stocks varying from 80# matte to 130# cover. We don't have color work every day, but have also had to turn away work because we can't turn it around fast enough.

PriceLineNegotiator .... you mentioned "Do you have a creaser/folder to support the machine (scoring on a Graphic Whizard won't work)?" Are you saying GW will or will NOT work?

We are a small shop, but the only printing business serving an area of about 50,000+ population.

Pricing as we've been doing it has been acceptable to everyone who has asked for work. Our only competitor for color work is OD, and they are hard to deal with (I've had people come in here still cussing mad after trying to get something done there).

Our paper suppliers carry all the digital stocks, as most everyone in the bigger markets are already running wide open with all of this.

As far as the operation of the machine, I would be doing it, and between learning what you learn through the years and an active prayer life can sort most things out.

So, the questions are:
- are the machines/manufacturers all priced about the same ... both on the machine and operating costs;
- how much is a reasonable amount to consider for payments on a machine;
- are there any models to stay away from.

Quality is what we are already able to provide through our sources now, and it's what I need to continue to sell, and I need to be able to achieve that quality consistently.

Again, OD, their machine seems to be broken an awful lot, and that is NOT a reputation I want to have.

I will begin to search to see who does service this area. I do hear a KM commercial on the radio. Of course, around here they are really selling office machines.

Thanks Again for your input and wisdom.

 

[MailGuru]

Well, at least you're moving in the right direction. Even the offset die-hards would have to agree, that, if you step back, objectively, and look at the overall print industry trends over the last 20 years, it has been lower quantity run lengths, quicker turnaround, higher quality, and variable data and imaging, which, is what digital is designed to do. Don't get me wrong, there is still a place for offset, and, will be for quite some time. But, even most the offset operations today have added digital to handle the short runs instead of burning a plate, and ramping up a big 4-color offset press to do 500 invitations.

Luckily, you're coming in at the right time. We're probably in the 3rd or 4th generation of digital production presses. Digital press technology, regardless of the manufacturer, has advanced to the point where pretty much any of the big three vendors that Keith mentioned (Konica, Canon, and Xerox), as well as one more I will add (Ricoh) can offer you a good solid high-quality machine that will do what you want. However, they are all still electro/optical/mechanical devices that have thousands of moving parts. Regardless of the vendor, you WILL have service calls that will need to take place, so, as Keith said, you need to research who has the best technicians and coverage in your area.

BTW, as PricelineNegotiator mentioned, I AM one of those that is partial to Xerox and have found their service, support, and training to be an invaluable resource.

 

[Manafaith]

Mail Guru is 1000% Correct. Xerox, KM, Ricoh and Canon are all going to run you about the same $$$$ on an entry level production machine. However SERVICE is everything!!! If your area is lacking in great Techs from any of the aforementioned names
I would steer clear. Meet with the service managers of any company you are considering and at least get a feel for what they are telling you. I would even suggest speaking directly with the Tech's that will be servicing your equipment. Sales will always whisper sweet nothings in your ear......but service is what will make or break you.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Graphic Whizard scoring on a scoring/numbering/perfing machine will not work. It cannot be a roller, but a unit that takes a sheet, stops it and wacks it with a creasing die. Morgana has a very nice hand-operated creaser that sits on a desk top - this will be crucial for folding cards, etc., and will work with lower volume runs until you need to do 2,500+ brochures on your digital press

Again, service is everything like these guys have said. I think Xerox would probably be the best bet for an intro to the technology, but if they have no service, then they are pretty much off the table.

Who is OD?

 

[MailGuru]

Who is OD?

I'm assuming "Office Depot"?

 

[wonderings]

Get in touch with the major players listed in this thread. Do not feel rushed, take your time and do tests... lots and lots of test. Let the sales rep bend over backwards to get your business. We ran our hardest jobs and did everything from adjusting a spot/pantone to get it to where we needed it to be and see if the machine was capable. Xerox has been great with that, so has Canon (we did not purchase the Canon but they were great when we were checking it out). You also do not need to start with the latest and greatest. We jumped in with an older machine, it was cheap but got us in the digital world and taught us a lot for what we wanted in the next machine. When you get into digital you will find you start doing more and more with it.

 

[Manafaith]

Finishing off of any Toner Based machine can always be a challenge. My Bindery Department absolutely despises it ..... but hey thats what the get paid for. We have had decent luck with running Tri-Creaser Scoring collars on the Stahl folders but we have yet to find that one cure all solution. Have demo'd a Duplo but it still didn't handle eveything we threw at it. Like mentioned above ..... take your time and make them earn your business!

 

[printingt]

Thanks Again!

Yes, OD=Office Depot. Some customers are happy there, others cringe when I send them in that direction. I let them know that it all depends on who they deal with there.

Thanks for the advice about not needing the latest amd greatest, as I do not need this to be a failing expedition.

Sorry to hear about the Graphic Whizard not working ... well, actually, no one has told me that before, and in my not knowing it's been working. But I don't think I use it right anyway.

 

[printingt]

Thanks Again!

Yes, OD=Office Depot. Some customers are happy there, others cringe when I send them in that direction. I let them know that it all depends on who they deal with there.

Thanks for the advice about not needing the latest amd greatest, as I do not need this to be a failing expedition.

Sorry to hear about the Graphic Whizard not working ... well, actually, no one has told me that before, and in my not knowing it's been working. But I don't think I use it right anyway.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

The Graphic Whizard works fine on offset stocks like 67# Bristol and even 110# Index, but once you put toner on the sheet, it cracks on the fold. We have been using a table top manual Morgana machine until now, we are taking delivery of a used Morgana Digifold 5000p next week - will make things much easier when we have to do 500 100#C trifolds!

 

[printingt]

Not sure why my full reply didn't show up from 1:18pm ....

_________________________
When I score, I don't use the valley on the anvil, but normally put a fine-line (not too deep!) score on the outside of the fold using the scoring wheel against the flat solid piece of the anvil. It's almost invisible, but when folding it just falls into place. Tri-fold brochures we've just been running them through our folder. Of course, full coverage/ full bleed jobs tend to slip all over the place.

 

[printingt]

We've been doing lots of color, just not in-house. The place that does the bulk of it only produces the imaged sheet, we do all bindery in-house. Starting Monday, I'm going to see what's out there. I'm not sure if I can touch the quality of what I've been getting, but sure hope I can. I'll let y'all know how it all works out.

 

[printingt]

Well, XEROX, so far, is the only response I've received.

I did get hold of a different KM dealer yesterday (the first one I called sounded good, but won't return my calls .... is it ME or him?), and he sounds promising.

Xerox .... they're pushing the C60. I thought, in my research on this site, that I might be disappointed with the C60 and should push for the V80, of which they no longer offer.

Any input appreciated on this, as well as what you think I should expect to pay (monthly) for whichever machine.

The KM dude suggested the C1060/60L/70/85 line, of which obviously refers to the pages per minute, but perhaps someone knows the inside story on how these machines produce, and differences in the machines (other than speed), and estimated monthly $$$.

Both vendors say that they can service whatever machine, but also admit, due to our locale, that there are not many production machines nearby.

Again, Thanks! for any input, insight and/or direction.

 

[MailGuru]

I thought, in my research on this site, that I might be disappointed with the C60 and should push for the V80, of which they no longer offer.

They still offer it, only now, it is called a "V180" (next generation of the V80 -- everything is still the same, just some enhanced finishing options)

 

[printingt]

Just to follow up .... have had the C70 for several months. Still learning something new every day. Still could tweak with the SIQA a little more, but getting by for now. Am LOVING the quality, the versatility, and am OK with the terms of the lease. This was a very good choice, just should have done it years ago, as now it seems like there may be too many color copiers in town to truly profit from this .... but the word is getting out that we know how to take care of people and have their best interest in mind.

 

[kslight]

Just to follow up .... have had the C70 for several months. Still learning something new every day. Still could tweak with the SIQA a little more, but getting by for now. Am LOVING the quality, the versatility, and am OK with the terms of the lease. This was a very good choice, just should have done it years ago, as now it seems like there may be too many color copiers in town to truly profit from this .... but the word is getting out that we know how to take care of people and have their best interest in mind.

That's good to hear. We run J75s and don't generally have quality or speed problems, primarily our concerns rely on speed of service when we do have a problem.
The SIQA tool is very important in getting the alignment near perfect. Just depends on the kind of work you do I guess.

As far as too many color copiers out there...my thoughts are the playing field is pretty level. If you aren't doing super specialized work then most customers are not going to know or care if you use one machine or another. A perfect example is, we have competitors running real fancy/expensive iGens and 1000s...and sometimes we have even vended specialized work to them because of the volume/turnaround and we were under the impression that our machines were inferior. Technicians will come here to work on our equipment and say "Oh you'd be so much happier/wouldn't have these calls if you had a 1000 or an iGen." And we will get the work back from them...and it'll suck, be obviously unacceptable and not match our proofs. So we will end up running the work in house anyway. At the time you want to know what we had for digital color? A DC2045, 2060, and a couple Phaser 7500s (yes, the little office desktop printers). We no longer have the 2045/2060 fortunately...but at the time they were already very old news. The point is we were using pretty much bottom level Xerox equipment and we were besting the guys that run only the latest and greatest.

Now maybe that just comes down to having a great operator (and a modest one...), but the point is unless you are doing specialized work, I don't think equipment matters as much as they might try to tell you.

Assuming all machines are performing in spec and aren't being operated by a dummy, the copy output will probably be pretty decent no matter what company the customer chooses. A company instead will live or die by value...the best combination of service, turnaround, and cost.